SPEAKER_01: 0:10

The fact that you're listening to this or any episode of our podcast, in fact, is down to our guest today. You'll hear more about that in a moment. We're joined by Maureen Wiley Clock, and we're going to be talking about the future of work and specifically the impact of AI on both Gen Z and Gen X and their career prospects over the next few years. Welcome to the Gen XD Exchange. I'm Chris Perkins, Gen X parent, now 50-something empty nester.

SPEAKER_03: 0:37

And I'm Lily Perkins, Gen Z career explorer. We've got insights on career choices, work, and life in general. So whether you're a Gen X parent trying to figure out midlife challenges, or a Gen Z young professional or student figuring out adulthood, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01: 0:54

We have with us Maureen Wiley Clough, the creator and host of It Gets Late Early, a podcast and newsletter dedicated to issues affecting mid-career workers, including, but not limited, to ageism in the workplace, especially in tech. Maureen, an English major, built a successful career in tech despite not having a STEM background, giving her a unique perspective on cultural barriers in corporate as well as the technical ones. At 37, someone called her a dino, and not long after that, she reflected on her future in the tech industry and decided to leave the corporate world and has since become a leading voice against ageism in all its forms. Her work explores the intersection of age and the workplace, the issues facing mid-career workers, reinvention in midlife, and how age discrimination affects hiring, retention, career progression, and workplace culture for people of all ages. She's a firm believer in the power of intergenerational teams and age inclusion and knows that the companies that understand this will win the future of work. Maureen, welcome to the Gen XZ Exchange.

SPEAKER_02: 2:00

Thank you guys so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 2:02

And thanks for joining us. And as we said, you are kind of the reason the podcast exists to some extent. It was a year or so ago. Found your content, listened to some episodes of the podcast when I was out on a run, which is something that I I still do. And there was one where you were talking about starting your own podcast, and I had never considered it, but felt quite inspired. Came up with an idea, suggested it to Lily, and here we are. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 2:30

Woo, thank you. Thank you. What a great idea it is. And I'm so happy you joined the Frey, the podcasting Frey. It's a it's an ever-widening club, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

Yeah, it has been an interesting journey. It's a steep learning curve, but we're still enjoying it. We're what eight months in now, Lily.

SPEAKER_03: 2:47

And uh wow, that's flown in.

SPEAKER_01: 2:49

20 episodes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:50

Nice. Go off. That's awesome. I'm glad. I'm so glad you did it. I think what you're doing is really important and it's a heck of a lot of fun too. And I just love seeing what the two of you are up to. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 3:01

No, it's been nice for us to just get a little yap and a catch-up as well, as getting to meet all our lovely guests. So wins all round. Yeah. That's awesome. I think just starting off, we want to tap into all your experience, especially from a women's perspective, you having built a successful career in tech. That is a weird time right now for tech. And the main focus for today is gonna be how the impact of AI in the workplace is gonna hit both younger and older workers. And I want to start with your take on ageism, because that's your whole thing. And you stressed that ageism affects every age group, older workers and younger ones as well. So can you say a wee bit more about how you see it presenting in the workplace right now?

SPEAKER_02: 3:43

Yeah, I uh ageism is the last acceptable acceptable social prejudice, really, out there. I mean, people are completely out there with any sort of ageist conversation. It doesn't even strike them as wrong. And one in two of us, according to the World Health Organization, are ageist. And I think half those people are lying because we're all a little bit ageist because we've been fed these stereotypes our whole lives. Yeah. I'll give you a great example. My own children say, hey, mom, you're old. And I'm like, what? Like it's a burn or something. And I'm like, where did you learn this? Like I did not teach you that being old was bad or getting older was a bad thing, but they already know. And the stereotypes start for kids. I mean, stereotypes start coming out that are harmful at around the age of four. So it's it's really deeply embedded in our culture. And it does depend on the culture, but in sort of the Western culture, you know, the United States for sure, it is very much a thing. So it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_03: 4:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:36

Yeah. There's there's also this just haste with which we kind of hurdle ourselves through life. Like we we want to achieve, we're all focused on the 30 under 30 Forbes list. And if you don't make it, like who are you? If you don't have a Maserati and a Benz and you aren't making millions a year, well, you're kind of a has been if you hit 30 and you haven't done that. And it's this very strange, like hustle culture, American grind mindset that I think is extremely harmful to people of all ages. And it makes people get to a point where they feel like, oh, my time has passed. I can't really keep on moving. It's a the glory days are gone. And then you add on to that Hollywood and the beauty industry. And especially if you're a woman, it's going to be even harder for you to age. And so we all have this internal narrative that we have to overcome as well. And it really starts there because we all bring ourselves into the office and you can have the best anti-bias policy, the best anti-discrimination policy on the planet. And you're still gonna have people actually doing things at the company. So no matter what you do, ageism will infiltrate your organization. It it doesn't even matter that ageism is illegal. Age discrimination against people over the age of 40 has been illegal at the federal level in the United States since 1967. It is rampant. It is the hardest type of discrimination to prove in the United States. It has to be the sole cause of either not getting a job or being fired. It happens all the time. It happens all the time. So it's the highest burden of proof. And it's uh, I think part of it is that it's born of the fact that it's that sort of socially accepted form of discrimination. So people are like ageism or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 6:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:13

I I suspect also it's the fact that it is the one big bias that hits all of us. So I think it gets sort of diminished in that sense. But that's also the perverse beauty of ageism. It is the one form of discrimination that will, if we are lucky, get all of us. And as I learned, you can be ageist against young people as well. And that was not something that I had ever considered before. I started this whole project and I was blown away. And in fact, recent research suggests that young women report ageism at a higher rate than older women, which I found fascinating. And then reading through it, I started to realize, oh my gosh, yeah, I was I was facing ageism earlier in my career and just didn't know what to call it, didn't recognize it. So the silver lining is that the discussions that we're having now, I think, are making people a little bit more mindful about it. And I don't think it's ever gonna go away because I think humans are you know reminded of their own mortality when they see a wrinkle on their face, right? Um so you're always gonna have a bias towards youth, I think, probably for that very instinctual reason. Um so we have to learn to live with it, we have to learn to do what we can with it, and we can't hold us back.

SPEAKER_03: 7:24

What you're saying about ageism affecting young people, it's a double-edged sword because I know so many people in their early 20s, my age group, who already seem to think my life is over, like I'm not like Billie Eilish when she was like 18 or whatever, getting a Grammy. Like my life's done, I'm not in the Forbes under 30s, like I'm doomed. But then also the side of things where you're young and you're not taken seriously, it's like, well, we can't win. It is a tricky thing that does affect young people as well. But like you said, we maybe don't have the language yet to fully understand it. But I'm glad it's becoming more of a conversation. I've seen posts on social media trying to encourage people, young people, to understand that aging is a privilege. Not everyone gets the chance to age. And so why is it something that we look at negatively? Yep. Aging is living, truly.

SPEAKER_02: 8:14

I think it's the most natural thing in the world to keep on breathing, and we probably shouldn't, you know, discriminate against people for having breathed.

SPEAKER_03: 8:22

It's really it's really dumb. Yeah, it's really dumb. I think going back to AI, um, what a lot of Gen Z are asking is will AI replace the jobs I'm aiming to get before I even get going. So do you think that's a justified fear? In the short, yes. Yeah. I was dreading that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:42

And I hate to say that. Uh my heart breaks. My heartbreak. I mean, I'm I'm not calling myself an AI expert, let me be clear on that. But all the signs point to that being the case. I mean, entry-level positions are now getting recruits who are three to five years of experience, right? Uh or more. People are are shifting downwards and the types of roles they apply for, which really disadvantages anyone who hasn't really had any experience yet. That's that's real. And I think it's heartbreaking. You know, when I was young in my career, I had companies that actually still had training programs and who put you through a specific sort of rigor to get into the business. And not only that, it was a time when you were always working in person, not remote and remotely. And I got to learn so much by being shoulder to shoulder with people in the office. And that, I mean, instrumental to me in terms of career growth. And a lot of Gen Z has not had that opportunity. So it really, really sucks. Um, it's it's certainly a thing. I think that the roles that are most likely to be automated away and taken by AI are those entry-level roles, are those things where you're getting your feet wet in the industry and you don't have all of the knowledge and the experience and know where the pitfalls are and have the ability to see around corners, all of which makes a really huge advantage for older workers, actually, um, which normally I would be really thrilled about, but I hate that it comes at the expense of uh younger people for nothing that they did. So, yes, I do absolutely think it is difficult for Gen Z, extremely difficult, in fact. But I also think that there is just a new playbook that we have to learn at this point in time and the old system, the old corporate workbook is not going to work. And it's not going to work for people of any age, really. I mean, it doesn't matter. It's just the people who have more experience have more contacts and all of the benefits that come with that, right? The network is larger and then they have the benefit of having all of that experience under their belt. So for Gen Z, it's it's just not really, you're not at the same starting line. And that is I find it really, really depressing and upsetting. But I will also say that I do think that AI presents itself with a lot of opportunity for people to go and try things out pretty low lift with low costs, low barrier to entry. And that if you're a Gen Z who wants to give yourself a bit more of a shot, exploring with AI is an excellent way to do it. And I think you're gonna have to come to the table in a different way with a different mentality, frankly, unfortunately, and I really do despise this with probably having to put more time, energy, and effort into the interview process, even pre-interview, like trying to showcase what you've done, all the different things that you've learned, and maybe a project you've done. So I dislike that intensely, but I think that is going to help people stand apart in this just absolutely miserable, hot trash job market. And not only that, there is, I think, going to be a massive boon of entrepreneurship, and that includes Gen Z. So Gen Z has the ability to go in and look at things with a very fresh perspective, you know, perhaps just out of college and really shake things up. And so I think my advice, if I'm not sure if you asked my advice per se, but I would suggest that people really lean into that and because otherwise the it can just get so bleak. And you have to control, you can control none of these circumstances were anything that anyone asked for, right? And it is really rough. But I would say the networking is of critical importance. So lean on lean on people because that's the way the world works. And you don't get any extra points by, you know, doing it a different way than you would if you actually called your friend's parent who happens to work at a company that you'd like to work for, or you know, ask them to look at your AI project that you just put together. Um it's just you gotta put yourself in the best possible position to succeed. And uh the Gen Zs I know are freaking amazing. So, I mean, I'm constantly inspired by them. I actually employ a as a contractor, a Gen Z social media consultant, and he's like, he's incredible. He absolutely teaches me stuff all the time, all the time. He has just no fear. It's incredible. He he's constantly pushing me to do more, to stop overthinking, to charge more, all of that. And he's helped me get out of my own way more times than I can count. And so he's truly he's a mentor to me. It is bi-directional, right? Like it does not come all down. The wisdom does not just like pass down through the older person. And you know, we just we have a blast together.

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

So it's funny how we talk about reverse, or we used to talk about reverse mentoring, like younger people mentoring older people. Well, it's not backwards, it's just mentoring, isn't it? That example that that you give. We've got lots to learn from all generations.

SPEAKER_03: 13:39

It's like the whole point of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 13:41

But society hasn't conditioned us that way.

SPEAKER_03: 13:44

Yeah, exactly. And I think especially for Gen Z, it makes a lot of sense why it would maybe be a smart move to want to grow with tech and with AI, work with AI rather than against it, because we are a digital generation, we've grown up with all of this new technology, and also the stuff you're saying about getting more comfortable and more to grips with your other skills, the interview stuff, the CV stuff that can make you stand out. So it's I guess about finding the balance between what makes us human and then also how we can work with the non-human and AI to progress. So, you know, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 14:22

I think from uh the Gen X perspective, Maureen, our fear at the other end of the kind of career life cycle from from Lily is that we've maybe got 10, 20 years to go before we can afford to retire often. And we're getting displaced and laid off, again, often due to AI, before we want to leave the workforce and then can't find a way back in because of all of those forces that you've mentioned. How real do you think that that risk is? And and is it gonna get worse before it gets better?

SPEAKER_02: 14:55

Yet again, I will say yes, it's remote, unfortunately. And uh I do it's super grim, but I do want to I do want to say one thing, which is the extent to which we are being told AI is replacing people is it's akin to greenwashing. It's AI washing. Companies are saying it because it sounds good to their investors and because it's a hell of a lot better than saying, hey, we overhired hired during the COVID era, or hey, we haven't figured our stuff out, we're gonna push these people out. They they have done return to office mandates, which are also another form of quiet layoffs, which actually really end up hitting a lot of older workers, which by the way, is by design because they know you're embedded in communities, have your kids at school, taking care of your elderly parents, whatever it might be, well, right. Um, and so they know they're gonna lose probably the more expensive people on their payroll who have happened to have gotten more experience and thus have a higher salary, right? Um, so this is all being done, but AI is the cover.

SPEAKER_00: 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:53

And so they are investing in AI, but the efficiency gains that they attribute to AI, those don't explain the layoffs at all. It's a PR move. So I think, I mean, otherwise, why would people be doing like three times the amount of work once their colleagues are laid off? Right. Everybody's at the brink of burnout and stress. And it's just, it's a pretty miserable time working in corporate, frankly. Um, so AI, yeah, uh, it's definitely going to replace, like I said, some of the earlier stage roles. And it will over the course of time as it continues to just up level, it is incredible sometimes what it can do. This is just the wild, wild west. We don't have playbooks, we don't have guides, you know, corporates all telling everybody you have to use AI and not telling them how to do it, telling them, hey, please let us know how you used it. And if you don't use it, you're gonna be in trouble. It's just, it's ridiculous. It's terrifying. So there was a study that came out recently that said up to 40% of the efficiency gains that AI gives are lost because people need to go and correct the work of the output of AI, or you know, it is so low a quality so as to be useless. And I've seen that myself time and time again. But there is a big opportunity for people in, you know, Gen X, uh, for older people in particular. If you use AI, it's gonna be a superpower for you. And at this point, it's not a nice to have, it's a need to have. And older people need to get on board because there's still a disparity between the younger generations and the older generations when it comes to AI usage. And that is going to do nothing but hold us back because those stereotypes about older people and technology already exist. We can't give them more reason to think that we don't know what the heck we're doing, right? Like it's incumbent upon us to disprove that, you know, fallacy. And not only that, it's going to give you a better shot at getting a job, right? It's it's uh it's going to make you a stickier employee. You know, your institutional knowledge, your experience, all of that combined with the power of AI is going to be like superb for your career. So I think it's yeah, the age of AI for the older, like older workers plus AI is like superpower, right? Um, and we need to take advantage of it. But we also need to recognize that those stereotypes very much exist. And there was a study done by Google and generations.org that showed that people, and this was it was across both the US and Europe. And people when they were thinking of hiring a candidate were almost 60% more likely to hire a candidate who was under 35 than over 60. And it it was, you know, incrementally down towards 35. It improved a little bit, but there was a huge preference for the younger people when it came to not just like AI-specific roles, but roles that needed to use AI tools just in their day-to-day, which is now every single job. So this is like a code read, we need to figure this out, older people, or we're just gonna set ourselves back a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 18:51

You've talked about the state of the job market in the US, very similar to what we're seeing in the UK at the moment. And I think one of the advantages that older workers have if they have been laid off is they do have that network to draw on. And referrals can work really well in terms of opening doors, getting into a new role. But equally, we also hear a lot of people talking about the kind of coded language that signifies some ageism happening. So talking about culture, fit, energy, pace, or that you're overqualified for the role, all of these things where those prejudices are kind of coming to the fore. What language do you think people should be listening out for? And is there anything they can do if they're butting up against that?

SPEAKER_02: 19:33

The most important thing to do is not let that consume your thoughts because yes, you will face ageism. It's real. Uh, 42% of hiring managers admit to being ageist against candidates, and that goes towards younger people and older people alike. And, you know, if you're over the age of 57, even rougher, up to 50% of recruiters think that 57 is quote, too old to hire.

SPEAKER_01: 19:56

It's too old.

SPEAKER_02: 19:56

Which is absurd for all the reasons we've discussed. But it's real. But if you if you think about that every moment, you're gonna get in your own way. That energy is going to come across the screen, the table, whatever, and it's not gonna help you. So yeah, it's real. And what you have to do is show up as your best self and not look for excuses. And when you think about those different pieces of coded language that you used earlier, there are ways that you can kind of get around those as much as possible. So if someone calls you overqualified, for example, that sometimes is a signifier of ageism or a preference for a younger applicant. But it's sometimes like an actual concern, like, oh, well, you've been the CEO of XYZ. Why do you want to be the sales representative or something like that? And so you need to know that that's coming potentially if you're taking a step back down the career ladder, whether that's because there's like a palkety of jobs at the level where you were, or because you, I don't know, you have to take care of a sibling or something who's who's need needing help, or you have a kid or whatever it might be, or you just want an easier job. Who knows? Uh, but you have to see that coming and you have to prepare to answer the questions about it. And in fact, even if you aren't asked questions about it, it's pretty simple. You need to show them why you are the right person for the job and why you want it. So, say I'm going from CEO of something or entrepreneur of something to a sales representative. I'm gonna be telling them, I am specifically interested in the sales representative job because of XYZ. I know I can deliver XYZ for your organization. And I'm excited to contribute to this for XYZ reason. You you have to sell that narrative and just push it out of their minds as much as possible by showcasing the extent to which you've thought about joining their organization and what you can do for them. Um, and that the same thing is true for everything else. If they're talking about energy, you know, show up more energetically if you can. Just do everything you can to benefit yourself from these situations. Just know you're up against it, but you're not a victim. You can you can absolutely overcome as much of this as you possibly can. And frankly, if you can't, it's probably not the right organization for you, and you most likely Would have been on some sort of layoff list or pip or something at some point. So maybe you saved yourself some tr trouble. Um, and beyond that, just take a look at their website, even. And if you see nobody with a single gray hair or whatever, you might think that it's possibly not the place where they're going to actually give you a fair shake and you might want to move on. And LinkedIn's a great tool for that. You can assess that. You can kind of gauge whether they do have a representative age group or not. And then the other thing is you can actually reach out to people on LinkedIn and say, hey, how's how's it going to this company? Or even better, you can reach out to people who have recently departed the company and say, Hey, give me a skill.

SPEAKER_01: 22:37

What was it like?

SPEAKER_02: 22:38

So, right? Spell the beans.

SPEAKER_01: 22:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 22:41

That approach in terms of talking about the problems you can solve for an organization in this role and where you've done it before and why you can do it specifically for them is exactly what interviewers want to hear. And it would be nice if they would set age aside, but you're right, overcoming those objections kind of before they come up is a good way to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:00

It would be nice. Yeah. Yeah. So if we think about conventional career advice for both generations, I think you typically get get told that to become successful, you just work harder, stay later, prove your value, and everything will be all hunky dory. You'll be safe. Yeah, exactly. Um and yeah, you just thought wrong. In the age of AI and layoffs, do you think that's still true? I feel like I can guess. Nope. Yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_02: 23:32

The system is broken and it's not your fault. Uh corporate is dead. I mean, the system is it's just not what it used to be. And the world, at least in and I'm speaking specifically for the US. I don't know the ins and outs of the UK market, although I suspect they're probably pretty similar. I would imagine, uh, I mean, the cost of living has skyrocketed. Uh, the wages have not done so. Uh, you you can't buy a home for$30,000 anymore as a person today. Uh, it's we're basically looking at the next generation being less well off than their parents. And that is a very sad state of affairs. And it's reality. And this isn't about blaming the boomers or something like that. It's about looking at things objectively. And it is just not possible to have the same sort of lifestyle as it was a generation ago, doing the same kind of jobs. The 30-year career with the gold watch at the end, that's pretty dead. I mean, some people will achieve it and good on them, and that's great, but it's not gonna happen for, I would probably wager the vast majority of people. And the sooner we stop buying into that system is that being the path, that career ladder being the one to climb, which by the way, I a hundred percent bought into that. The sooner we can define our own uh success moving forward. Because it's just the world of work has changed. And whether we like it or not, and I'm I'm on the not side, to be very clear. I I do not like it. Um, we are at the place where white-collar workers are getting into sort of the gig economy style of work, and that's because it's better for shareholders, and these companies want to do that. So we are finding ourselves with less of a safety net than ever before. And so we all, no one's coming to say to you, you have to go build it yourself. And I think we are about to have a big reckoning with all of this, and it's it's really uncomfortable to think about. And um, I just I don't want people to get caught flat footed. Like the signs and the signals are all there, salaries are being reset. I mean, they're letting people go because of quote AI, and then they're rehiring people at a much lower rate, or they're hiring contractors because that's cheaper, and then you don't get the benefits, or they're outsourcing to a cheaper country for labor. It's happening. They're getting us, there's flooding the market with unemployed people, experienced professionals who are unemployed for long enough because the talent pool is so massive and there aren't enough jobs that they will take your scraps when you offer it to them later. And it's really, it's a systematic way of resetting the labor market and it's happening. And we need to start making preparations. Um corporate is great for a lot of people. I loved corporate for a long time for a lot of reasons. I also hated it for a lot of reasons too. But uh, there's no right answer, if you will, but it is important for people to see how things are shifting in the world of work and not get too comfortable because things are changing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:26

Yeah. So on that note, when we talk about putting up safety nets for yourself and adapting to this changing world of work, I'd love to talk about the side hustle that we often discuss side hustles, and you're pretty good at generating lots of ideas for me of things I could do. So I think this is a pretty hot topic. So many people my age, like you say, Gen Z are really entrepreneurial and people are generating new streams of income for themselves. So, do you think that everyone should have a side hustle now? Or has that idea become another form of pressure that people are putting themselves under? Is that just another form of capitalist self-inflicted abuse? Like, what's going on there?

SPEAKER_02: 27:07

I used to think so, yes. And I used to absolutely despise the term side hustle. I'm like, man, I am barely getting by my number one hustle. I am I am so exhausted, yeah, so stressed. Like one job is enough for me, man. Like, don't make me feel like I'm not doing enough. Like the American grind hustle mindset, it I hate. Oh, and with social media, it's just even worse. Like, oh, I mean a face. Oh my gosh. And then the whole boss babe movement sparrowing, like awful, so horrible. Uh, but yeah, and there was a point when I'm I truly felt less than because I was not an entrepreneur or I wasn't a girl boss, or I didn't have something on the side, wasn't doing something creative just for me. Corporate was just enough for me. I wanted to go live my life and enjoy it outside of the city. Yeah, it should be enough. If you have number one job, that should just it should give you your life. Yeah. And it used to be. And it's it's very sad to see that slipping away. I no longer think, I no longer think it's about that. I no longer think it's the you know, grind custle hustle mentality thing where people are saying that I think it is becoming, I don't want to say a necessity, because of course for some people it won't be. But for a growing number of people, it frankly will be. And again, I think it comes down to looking at this situation, seeing the tea leaves and recognizing that the salary that you had and have had for the past few years, if you've been in the corporate world, is quite likely going to diminish. And you should probably start making these other sorts of side incomes available to you in the hopes that they'll grow. I mean, it's just like investing in stocks, right? Like we've we've been betting it all on one, our income from our corporate employer. That's what we bet on. And now we're seeing that that maybe wasn't the right call. It's it was riskier than we ever imagined. So it's about spinning up these different little experiments. It's about putting yourself out there. I know you guys did an excellent episode a while back about climbing cringe mountain. Oh, thank you. Man, we like that one's awesome. Awesome. I loved it. You gotta climb cringe mountain. And I think for older people, it's hard to do that because you have a reputation that you've built. People know you as X, Y, Z. They understand who you are, they think they do. And then when they see you take a hard write, they're like, what the hell? And they will vocalize that or they will slink away and not support you. And it is very uncomfortable. But it is going to be a pretty necessary for people to actually publicly say what they're doing in order to survive this new world of work. So cringe mountain is a must. It's a must summit, man.

SPEAKER_00: 29:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 29:46

If we bring ageism into it as well, I feel like the cringe mountain thing does affect older generations a lot more because when you think about like that, we've talked about midlife and quarter life crises. If you're taking those sharp bright turns, the fear of someone saying, Oh, identity crisis, like age crisis, like I'm obviously not at that stage yet, but I can just imagine the fear and that just puts me off already. Yeah, it's real. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01: 30:10

People are trying to reinvent themselves because they have to. They have to find a way of surviving in this market. And then if you've got friends and family criticizing you, that's just one less thing that you can do without. And and as you said, no one is coming to save you. I think people that have built careers and have been loyal to a company all of a sudden are discovering that loyalty is not repaid in any way when the company needs to make changes. And a lot of people are moving into what I've heard described as involuntary entrepreneurism. It's like, okay, I'm not going to get another job, right? I'm going to start a company. And that could lead to all sorts of amazing things, not just for them, but job creation for other people. It could in new products, new services. You know, there'll be some amazing things. But we have to go through the pain to to get there. And certainly with people my age, if what they've come from is not offering a future, whether it's employed or or self-employed, they've got to move in a different direction. But one of the things that holds them back is this idea that it's too late for me. I can't change. I can't solve it. What would you say is the biggest myth that's that's holding people back from being able to successfully make a change?

SPEAKER_02: 31:22

That you have to throw good time after bad. Like why do people think that just because you've done one thing forever, even though you know it's not going to pan out for you, or that you see the tea leaves and it's not it's not going in the right direction, that you have to keep on going down that path for social approval. You've gotten through a lot of stuff in your life and you've been through heartbreak, you've been through your job loss likely, you've lost people close to you. You can do this, you know. This is just you're gonna figure it out. Like you, you should have the self-confidence after having had decades of doing so to take a step out. And it's uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable for all the reasons you suggested. And the public aspect of it, because so much of our world is online now, is really it's even embarrassing for me still. I've been doing this for two and a half years, and I still cringe when I see myself doing something. I'm like, oh my God, like ugh. But you have to do it. And at the end of the day, older people, hopefully, most older people, I know I learned this, no one's thinking about you the way you're thinking about you. You're not the main character in anyone else's script. No one cares. They will think about the stupid reel you posted or the dumb thing you wrote on LinkedIn for about a minute. They might send it to someone to be mean or whatever, but who cares? They're gonna forget about it. And I care much more about what I think of me than what other people think of me. And I would encourage people to focus on that because you can't control what you can control, which I think the hardest part of becoming an adult for me, really, is recognizing how little control I have over the world around me and accepting that and the grief that comes with processing that. But truly it's it's what we got.

SPEAKER_01: 33:09

And it's tough. I mean, clearly the rules are changing. Everyone is trying to kind of find their way through this kind of new future. What do you see are the skills or the mindset that's actually becoming more valuable, not less, right now?

SPEAKER_02: 33:26

The power to connect is huge. I believe we're about to see a total explosion of in-person, in real life networking, events, that sort of thing, anything with a real human touch, face-to-face. Not only because of the COVID pandemic having kept us apart for so long, but also because of this whole advent of the robots coming for our jobs. So anything creative, anything that requires institutional knowledge and connecting of dots and connecting of different groups or people, I think will be really important. And I'll say this too. I don't think AI is very good at being creative. I they I mean, actually, the whole LLMs, what they do is they look for the next likely word, right? They pick the most most likely word to appear next and they string it together. And that's why it sounds so disjointed and inhuman. But I think there's gonna be just a lot more emphasis on on uh communication and this quote unquote soft skills, which so often are the hardest of all, but just those sorts of things that make us human will be very important.

SPEAKER_01: 34:36

I think the the human contact is gonna become a luxury product. Most of us are gonna interact with machines, yeah, well put, self-serve, all of those kind of things. So if your people skills are really good, there's a niche there that is gonna be sought after, as you say, if you're good with people.

SPEAKER_02: 34:52

Yeah, and experiences.

SPEAKER_01: 34:53

The stuff that's always been the case.

SPEAKER_02: 34:55

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you know, I think it was often considered silly or less than. And I know I've you know, I've seen even tweets, because I won't call them ex posts, but tweets of people who are in the tech world, like tech bros talking down to people in sales or whatever. And I'd like, I'll I'll I'd they're like, oh, you didn't build anything. Like, I'd like to see you sell what you build. Good luck. Always, you know. Um, so those skills that some of us on sort of like the more liberal arts humanities track have been building are, you know, very I mean, I I would not have called it, I would not have called it as being as being the horse to put my money on, but I think we're gonna come out on top, which uh I hope so. Fingers crossed, yeah. But again, my I hate that this comes at the expense of other people. I know that there have been a lot of recent graduates in computer engineering and computer science who are just screwed, right? Um, and now they have all this debt and they have to go figure out how to be like an AI founder. And I also hate that we have like six or eight dudes who are basically out there deciding how our entire world unfolds and all they really care about is making the most money humanly possible. They don't care if it ruins our environment or kills everybody, so that's really fun. Um but here we are.

SPEAKER_03: 36:15

Control what you can control.

SPEAKER_01: 36:17

Everyone's just gonna find their way.

SPEAKER_03: 36:19

No, we're just living in like a Marvel film now, and then we just need one of these, you know, techie guys who aren't our souls to like turn into a Tony Stark and get the Avengers sorted out. Where is that person? For real. We'll lovely soon be please save us. No one's going to save us. That's that's what we've been saying. But we can pray, please. We can pray.

SPEAKER_01: 36:43

Maybe collectively we could we could be that Tony Star character that's back against.

SPEAKER_02: 36:49

I like that. And we do have power, Chris. That's absolutely right, and we can't forget it.

SPEAKER_03: 36:54

So, Maureen, if you could give one piece of advice to someone just starting out and then another person who's afraid of being pushed out, what would they be?

SPEAKER_02: 37:04

It might be the same, actually, which is lean into your human connections and your network.

SPEAKER_00: 37:10

Nice.

SPEAKER_02: 37:10

And network gets a bad rap, but really it's just talking to people, it's just making connections. You know, go forward, be curious about others, and let let the conversations lead where they may, and then repay the favor when you can. Just help each other out. This is a really rough time for everybody, and particularly if you have the chance to lend a hand to someone, Gen Z who doesn't have the gift of the bigger network. Yeah, do it. It's important.

SPEAKER_03: 37:36

Yeah, please help us. Yeah, definitely. I love Gen Z. We're more like than different. Peace and love. That's that's the underlying. Exactly. Well, that's what we've discovered doing in the podcast is everyone just needs to hone in on these human skills and have these conversations because there's really not that much difference between us. Exactly. Different lens.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

That's a great note to finish on. We just need to help each other out, right? We're all in this together, right? We need to to figure it out, help people out, and they can. So, Maureen, if people want to follow along with the things that you're working on or connect with you, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_02: 38:11

I'm on all the socials, including TikTok. See, millennials can also be on TikTok. Um, so my handle at uh Instagram and TikTok is at Maureen W Clough, Clough C-L-O-U-T-H. And then on LinkedIn, I'm uh actually the same. Yeah, Maureen W. Clough. And then I'm also uh at itgets late early to dot com, which is the name of my podcast because it does get late early. I was Claudie Rhino at 37. Yeah, so any of those places would be good. Just give me a holler.

SPEAKER_01: 38:44

Fantastic. We'll put all of those links in the the show notes. And it's been wonderful getting your perspective on what we're all trying to come to come to terms with. Uh a lot of really good advice there, I think, for people of of all ages, but particularly for the Gen Zs and the Gen X's. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02: 39:03

Thanks so much. Well, thank you both so much. It was so fun to get to meet you. And I just love that you're working together as a father and daughter, and I find it really cool.

SPEAKER_01: 39:12

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 39:12

We've not had even that many fights or anything, Dad. Written pretty well. Touch with.

unknown: 39:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:17

It's really awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 39:19

Well, thanks for setting us on this track. Because it has been a fun project. It's a side hustle, Lily. You can say you've got a side hustle, yeah. You've got a paying job and you've got a podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 39:28

You can.

SPEAKER_01: 39:29

Thanks for it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 39:31

All right. Take care. Bye. Speak to you later.

unknown: 39:34

Bye. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

If you found that conversation really interesting and insightful, please do consider giving us a five-star rating and a review. That really helps the podcast uh reach new listeners. In uh next episode, we are talking about the concept of the third place. So you have home as your first place, you have work or school as your second place, and the third place is everything in between, from cafes, youth clubs, sports clubs, and other things to gathering places where we can have conversations. The challenge at the moment is a lot of those places are disappearing. And that means all of those conversations won't be happening. So we're looking into why that might be and what can be done.

SPEAKER_03: 40:17

Thank you for that episode of the Dead XDX change.