Lily 0:05

Whether it's social media, benting TV tools, alcohol, drugs, or even work, we can all end up addicted to something. There's something in our brains that attracts us to these behaviours, and then get us hooked. And with the help of our guest today, we're about to find out what that is.

Chris 0:22

Welcome to the Gen X/Z Exchange. I'm Chris Perkins, Gen X parent, now 50 something empty nest er.

Lily 0:29

And I'm Lily Perkins, Gen Z Career Explorer. We swap insights on career choices, work, and life in general.

Chris 0:37

So whether you're a Gen X parent trying to figure out midlife challenges.

Lily 0:41

Or a Gen Z young professional or student figuring out adulthood, you're in the right place. If you're honest with yourself, that's probably something you're addicted to. It may not be a problem now, but it could escalate. Our guest today knows how that happens. As a teen, Diana Hugh McDowell excelled academically but moved frequently and struggled socially. Without healthy coping skills, she turned to alcohol and nicotine. While it started small, it escalated until she reached a turning point and got help. That experience shaped her path. After nine years with the Hazeldon Betty Ford Foundation, Diana founded her own prevention company, helping schools and organizations address substance use before it becomes a crisis. She specialises in adolescent brain development, emerging substance trends, and how to talk to young people about risk in a way that informs without pushing them away. By combining data, science, and storytelling, she helps young people make healthier choices and prevent the preventable. Diana, welcome to the Gen Xe Exchange. Thank you. Good to be here. Good to have you. Thanks for joining us. So starting off, Diana, I think every teenager experiments with something or other as a way of pushing boundaries in their youth. And it sounds like you maybe did the same. So tell us a wee bit more about how you've come to work in the field of addiction prevention with young people.

Diana 2:04

Yeah, I think like a lot of teenagers, I was testing boundaries, but I didn't fully understand the risks I was stepping into. So backing up a bit, my parents emigrated from Taiwan to the US in the 70s. And I grew up in a family where academic achievement and financial security were like prizab everything else.

Lily 2:29

Right.

Diana 2:29

So I did well in school, I got good grades, I followed the quote unquote right path. But at 16, I moved from living with my mom in Hong Kong to living with my dad in New York City. And that was a huge shift.

Lily 2:42

Yeah, I can imagine.

Diana 2:43

Yeah, I just wasn't prepared for uh that huge environmental shift and the exposure to things like alcohol and nicotine because I was so sheltered in Hong Kong. And school or my parents didn't really prepare me for those social dynamics and the wanting to fit in. So by the time I was in college, I was doing well academically, but also drinking and partying a lot. And I think because I still got good grades, that threw me off and it threw my parents off and kind of hid my excessive drinking problem. And then that behavior followed me into finance and intensified. Um, everything came to a head when I was later involved in this alcohol-related accident. I was with my best friend, and unfortunately, she didn't make it out of the accident. And that moment changed everything. I went into a deep depression, continuing to use alcohol to cope. But on the outside, I looked like I was functioning, but internally I was really struggling.

Chris 3:49

Wow.

Diana 3:50

Yeah.

Lily 3:50

No, sorry to hear that.

Diana 3:52

So, you know, I think like I just I had I hadn't learned um how to cope. You know, ever since I was a teen, anytime I was uncomfortable, I, you know, used alcohol and nicotine. And now after this like really devastating situation, you know, I relied on alcohol more than ever.

Chris 4:14

And what age were you for the accident, Diana?

Diana 4:17

I was 26 when this happened. So I had had like a 10-year period during which I had been not drinking every day, but certainly whenever there was an opportunity to, I would, my friends and I would overdrink. You know, we would set limits for ourselves and then end up drinking way more than those limits, which I later realized is a sign for, you know, having a potential problem with alcohol. But at the time, my friends and I just kind of laughed it off. Like this is just what young people do. And that combined with the fact that I was still, you know, doing reasonably well in school and work, like hid hid my problems. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so eventually, you know, I um I couldn't finish my master's program. I couldn't hold down a relationship. And so I went on the computer one day and I typed in help for quitting drinking. And one of the first results was Alcoholics Anonymous, which you might know as a 12-step group. I started attending these meetings. And little by little, you know, my life started to rebuild my life, starting with, you know, how I dealt with stress, um, how I had fun. Like what I've realized about addiction is like it isn't this like defining moment. You aren't an addict, and then suddenly you are, but it's like these series of many, many small choices.

Lily 5:50

Yeah.

Diana 5:51

And then suddenly it catches up to you. But the same is true for recovery. Like I started spending time in these 12-step groups, and then I started to do yoga, and then I started to find mindfulness and nature. And then that's how I met my husband through rock climbing. And then we ended up getting married and had two kids. And so I just think it's like people have this perception that addiction is, you know, something that happened to, you know, certain kinds of people, but it can happen to anybody. And as it's happening, a lot of the times it's like quite subtle under our awareness.

Chris 6:30

And you said you you started drinking as a teenager and you don't go from instantly to not having consumed alcohol to suddenly be addicted. What would you say it is about teenagers that draws them to this kind of substance misuse or addictive behaviors?

Diana 6:48

I think it's a combination of factors on a very physiological level, their brains are wired to for novelty and risk taking and dopamine rush. Dopamine rushes, which is what alcohol and nicotine in these substances do. They're wired to seek that excitement without that fully developed prefrontal cortex, the decision making, like thinking through consequences, self-control. And then coupled with this desire to want to have fun and fit in. And so for me, you know, it wasn't just the substances that was creating this feeling, this pleasurable feeling. It was the belonging. It was the social aspect. It was, you know, my friends going, go, Diana, you know, chug, chug, one more, just one more. And all of that is like so um intoxicating for you for a young person. Yeah.

Chris 7:46

And it was you that put me on to the book Dopamine Nation, which I found fascinating. That explores how so many things in today's society are kind of engineered to get us hooked. What are you seeing are the biggest pressures and temptations that young people are are facing today that maybe people like me, their parents, didn't have to contend with a generation ago?

Diana 8:09

Um, I'm gonna put that on to Lily if that's okay. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I'd love to hear what you're what you're seeing as the resident Gen Zier.

Lily 8:21

Well, I feel like as we spoke about in previous episodes, social media is obviously a huge one for young people. And as you say, when you're a teenager and your brain is kind of moosh essentially, that just wants to seek out the thrills, the risk-taking behaviour, social media and doom scrolling gives you that massive dopamine hat, and also I don't know, there's like this kind of almost like self-harmy comparison element to it that I think young people can really get drawn into, whether it's people in your immediate circles who you're seeing, like you say, Diana, that social element of oh, that group of people are out partying, having fun, doing things that I'm not, that can become a bit addictive, um, in my experience, anyways, like going down rabbit holes and seeing that everyone's having supposedly a lot more fun than you. And then other things I think we can think about generally if we just think about classic substances from my experience, I would say most things are more readily available than they would have been to you, Dad, because of things like Snapchat, WhatsApp. It's much easier to get your hands on actual substances. It's not like you need to know some sketchy guy in an alleyway or you know, have friends. You can kind of just find anyone for anything.

Chris 9:46

It's interesting you say that because I was thinking back to when I was in my sort of late teens, twenties, and and in the 80s when I was at school in the UK, I remember a really big campaign around heroin and what that can do to you. And it was pictures of people that looked awful and was talking about what terrible physical consequences there are to things like that, and yeah, it worked, it put me off ever wanting to experiment with anything like that.

Lily 10:15

Yeah.

Chris 10:15

But when I started going to nightclubs, I was blown away at how readily available everything was. I can remember being offered heroin in a nightclub. And it was almost like it was shocking, but kind of normalized it because this wasn't some junkie on the street, this was someone else in the club that I was in that had it and was offering it to people, and and that kind of freaked me out. And I don't know if you've had any experiences like that, but it was so easily available. If you're vulnerable and you want to experiment or you're egged on by your peers, it wasn't difficult to get hold of. And I imagine now it's exactly the same, if not even more easy to get hold of. You know, whether you can order it online or or make arrangements with people, you don't necessarily have to kind of bump into someone as part of the network.

Lily 11:03

There's lots of exactly. So what you're saying, your exposure to being offered that in a nightclub now, it's like you don't even necessarily need to be out of the house to be offered things.

Chris 11:12

Well, it wasn't like it was a shady deal on a street call.

Lily 11:15

No, exactly.

Chris 11:16

But like, yeah, this is what people do. I'm like, really?

Lily 11:18

This is very normalised. Uh-huh, exactly. So I think just the fact that people can contact you off of various social media platforms. Social media itself, I don't know, a lot a lot of social media link stuff, that would be the obvious one. And then in my experience as well, like I say to dad, it's a similar kind of thing with clubbing now, like people do offer you things, um, or somebody knows a guy, whatever. I spent a lot of time in uni partying and going out as many students do. And I wouldn't say anyone in my immediate friend group has a particularly problematic relationship with substances, or uh it seems like they have really unhealthy coping mechanisms just now, but I've definitely seen it in other people. I feel like when you go out a lot, you do run into these types that are always in the club, always on something, and it does become a bit of a repetitive pattern. And it's tricky because most of these people seem to be very good at hiding how deep the addiction r might run. Like you've said with yourself, Diane. I think sometimes people can be showing up to work or uni on the Monday just fine and still getting decent grades. Yeah, still functioning. Yeah, exactly. So it kind of masks how deep things might be or gets played off as them being the party animal, you know, so-and-so just likes a drink, but you know, they'll be in uni on Monday, it's all good. So with that in mind, what would you say some early warning signs are that friends or parents should be looking out for if something's perhaps escalating?

Diana 12:47

Yeah, that's a great question. And I really appreciate how you touched on this common misconception that if someone has an addiction, it it'll be obvious. That's certainly how I used to think about it. Like your life would be falling apart, you're you'd be jobless, homeless, like really, really desperate and struggling.

Chris 13:06

That was like the images in the heroin posters. You know, it was kind of worst-case scenario. It wasn't anything about, you know, you can still function and almost that it's a recreational thing. It was like when you were completely down and out.

Diana 13:20

Yeah, exactly. And certainly, you know, that is, you know, how addiction can look like for some people. But in reality, it's often a lot more subtle or harder to detect. And I think it can be helpful to step away from this word addiction for a moment. It has its place because the word addiction, it makes things very black and white. Either you have it or you don't, or worse, you're you're either an addict or you're not. A more helpful way is to think about problematic use or problematic behavior. That helps us to have a more nuanced understanding and helps us to catch things earlier. So you start looking for patterns like, okay, so what would problematic use look like? In my case, you know, after working, you know, a nine to five job, I look forward to happy hour and I tell myself, oh, I'm gonna have two drinks and get home by eight o'clock. Before you know it, it's midnight and I'm five or six drinks in. Yeah. If that's a one-off thing, fine. But if it's happening over and over again, then that's a warning sign, right? If I'm like, oh, you know what? I'm not gonna drink for a month. I've trying to cut back, but then the next weekend comes again and I'm drinking again. So I'm trying to scale back, but I'm not able to, right? And you can apply this to using technology, you can apply this to gambling. This the principles are kind of similar. How is it affecting your life, the way you feel about yourself, you know, your your internal values? How is it affecting your relationships with others? Are you letting go of things that you know you used to care about? So once you start thinking about it in like this more nuanced like spectrum of problematic use, then A, you remove that moralistic aspect to it, right? Like thinking about I'm addict or not. But you also are able to catch these things earlier before they're before you're like in those really late stages of addiction. So actually, for when it comes to substances, it's like the term is actually substance use disorder. And there is like mild, moderate, and severe forms of it. So that the goal is to really catch substance use disorder or prop problematic behavior in the mild end on the mild end.

Chris 15:47

In terms of what might be that mild end in Diana, would that be when you notice someone isn't sticking to their limits? If they said, okay, I'm gonna come out for one or two drinks and then they need to go back if they're still there at 10, 11, 12 p.m. and they've exceeded those limits as a friend or or as a parent, is that the point that you should start to register, okay, this looks like they're having a a problem with sticking to the limits they want to set for themselves? And you start thinking, well, maybe it needs some kind of support or intervention.

Diana 16:19

Yeah, I would say that that is probably one of the earliest indicators. Next would be if people are trying or are starting to be like secretive or are hiding their their behavior, like there they there's like a sense of shame around it or or secrecy and not and not wanting people to know how much they're you know gaming or gambling or or you know drinking.

Chris 16:44

Yeah, and I guess that's one of the difficulties as a parent. I know when Lily and her younger brother were teenagers, we were kind of cautious but fairly liberal in terms of them being able to, you know, go out to parties and and that kind of thing. But if you see anything that looks problematic or or even dangerous, it can be really difficult to broach that subject and have a conversation that doesn't automatically make them shut down. What would you say really helps for for parents in terms of how to start that conversation and keep the communication open?

Diana 17:17

I would say that, you know, it's just something that your family does from a young age. You know, you're not having like the drug lecture, you know, sit-down drug lecture, but your family is just in the habit of talking about, you know, things like health. For example, my I have a five and a I have an almost five-year-old and a seven-year-old. So we talk about, you know, sugar and TV and how a little bit is okay, but too much is not healthy and why. And then eventually we expand that into conversations about alcohol, for instance. I think more important than what you say is what you're doing, like what you're role modeling.

Lily 18:04

Yeah.

Diana 18:04

My husband and I, we try to role model healthy ways to relieve stress, um, to have fun. You know, we're very kind of vocal about okay, we're gonna leave the phone in the room now so we can have quality family time, like kind of exaggerated. We're gonna go out for a bike right now to relieve some stress. And so it's just like kind of normalized that they're seeing these like variety of ways to have fun and to de-stress and admitting when we haven't done, you know, something that that we we didn't make the best choice, right? Having the humility and the awareness to to admit that. That way, when they are teenagers and they're navigating this stuff, it's already part of like the family norm to just be open and talk about what's going on.

Chris 18:54

That makes sense. And role modeling, as you say, you know, you concede that in moderation, when you're sensible about setting boundaries, there's a good guardrails for children and teenagers to see. What would be your tips for parents to try and avoid overreacting if if they see something that they are concerned about, to treat it in a in a sensible way rather than over-reacting and but being able to provide some support for people?

Diana 19:22

Um, I'd love to hear from Lily. Like, how does your dad in the past, how has he dealt with something that he's not happy with you about?

Lily 19:32

Well, if we're using drinking as an example, I think most of the time you guys were I think I was alright with drinking in when I was younger most of the time. But I think a good example of something that I would maybe consider an overreaction looking back, you guys had a curfew for me even when I was at home when I was 18, and I thought at the time it was an overreaction. I understand why it was in place, but I remember one time being like a little bit I think I'd been late a couple of times, if I'm being totally honest, but I feel like there was an instance when I was quite late, and I understand curfews are in place to keep everyone safe, and you know it's dangerous. I remember coming back quite late one time and understandably there was quite a big reaction, but for me it maybe would have been better to kind of roll things back a little bit and come into that conversation with more of a more of an approach of like we're this is in place because we want to keep you safe, we're not trying to limit the amount of fun you can have with your friends. Can we discuss if you're you know if something goes wrong and you're gonna be late again in future, like can we discuss how we can reduce that or if if we have like a backup plan for getting home, if you need us to give you money for a taxi so you make it in time, stuff like that. So I think that approach of we're doing this keep you safe, a bit more calmly um and offering some alternatives, and I guess that approach could also be applied to stuff like drinking. Like, let's say I'd been to a few parties with my friends and I was consistently coming back home legless, um, like a friend's mum had had to drop me off, or you'd pick me up several times and I was all over the place. I think instead of shouting at me while I'm steaming drunk, or you know, the next morning when I'm really hungover and scolding, it would maybe be better to say, Lily, can we speak to you at some point tomorrow when you're feeling better? Because we've just noticed a few patterns with your alcohol usage, and we feel like there's maybe you know, maybe something's going on with you, or you're stressed about your exams, whatever it may be. And I think I don't think I ever uh needed that conversation to happen. I think my drink. I can't remember that.

Chris 22:04

Um I don't think it gave us concern. I think we've learned generally that it's best to engage with you after you've had a coffee in the morning than the first thing. Whatever's been going on. I kind of remember the the period you were talking about, and I think it was probably to do with you being late but there not being any communication. And that was probably Yeah, because friends like my phone die as well. Was more to do with kind of personal safety than concern about drinking, for example. And I think we did agree from that that it was about you keeping in touch. So if you texted before the curfew and said, I'm having a really fun time with my friends, can I stay out for another half an hour, hour? I think we negotiated over that. It was the not knowing, which probably was quite a visceral parental reaction to, Oh my goodness, what's happened? Is she in a ditch somewhere? Yeah, when you were just partying. And yeah, I do remember with you and Charlie said, Oh, my phone has died was always an excuse for I can't be in touch. But everyone else in that room must have a phone. There must be someone.

Lily 23:12

I needed to have written your phone number down on my hand or something. Like there was definitely preventative measures. So I guess yeah, that kind of approach about noticing, oh, we've noticed a pattern in you doing this, doing XYZ. Can we speak about why that might be might be? Can we negotiate some some rules maybe? And like if you're unable to keep those rules, there's that's maybe indicative that there's a problem here. So yeah, I guess I guess that. Hopefully that was like a helpful overview of my side of things.

Chris 23:46

Would that be consistent with what you would suggest, Diana, in terms of how parents and teenage children kind of manage that dynamic?

Diana 23:54

Yes, Chris. That I I give you an A star for parenting. Oh, thank you. Based on what Lily said. Well done. No, I think everything that Lily said was um really what we tried to have come across in inherent meetings. Research shows that if children perceive their parents to have clear rules and boundaries when it comes to alcohol and other substances, they are less likely to drink. And they also, if if they do, they drink less. So if you think about it, if a kid's gonna break rules, they're not gonna break rules to the very extreme end. They're gonna try and see what they can can get a get away with. And so if you have certain rules to begin with, then even if they do break the rules a little bit, it most likely won't be the way that my friends and I were breaking, you know, we didn't have rules to break, but we were trusted that I think the mentality of it was like, oh, they're just teenagers or you know, they're they're they're gonna do teenage things. Yep. But that can span so much, right? Like that can cover a wide range of behavior. And when you're a teenager, you can't be trusted to, you know, have good judgment on what that means. And so we recommend like we don't tell families what the rules should be, but that, you know, just that they they they have rules, they set limits. And then to also be flexible at times and and be reasonable and understanding and to keep those communication channels open. You know, if your child is uncomfortable at a party, you as a parent want to be that person that they text or they call, like, hey, mom and dad, I'm, you know, you have a code word or an emoji, no questions asked. We call it a no questions asked policy. You pick up your child, you don't talk about it that night, you you know, put it off until is a good time for everybody. And then it's just asking again open-ended questions. Is it okay? What were you feeling? I've noticed. Um, can you tell me more about as opposed to, you know, why would you do that? What were you thinking? Yeah. You know, that like kind of very charged emotional talk that gets everybody, you know.

Chris 26:15

That is a great idea. I I can feel myself reacting in that situation in terms of how difficult it would be to not want to ask those questions when you go and pick them up, but to have to be the kind of adult in the room and the responsible parent and think, okay, that's the agreement. It's kind of no questions asked, you know, but we'll be there when you need us to be, and then having a more rational conversation the following day or a day or two later. Yeah, that's a really good tip.

Lily 26:41

Nice. I want to come back to earlier on when we we were talking about things that were different now to when you were a teenager dad. And it was funny that you mentioned gambling earlier on, Diana, because that actually made me think when I was trying to think of things earlier on that are more common gambling, the sports betting, all of these apps, so many young men, especially my age, who have like wasted thousands and thousands of pounds. Wow. So that's a really big issue in the UK at least. And then another thing that have really taken off when you have things like legal highs, so they obviously create the impression of being safe because of the legality part. And in the UK, there's been lots of publicity about nitrous oxide canisters or balloons spice, so your synthetic cannabinoids, ketamine, that's a really big drug in the UK. I think I've seen stuff online that it's become more popular in the States now as well, but that's been really big in like the festival scene as well for a long time, and then misused prescriptions like Xanax and ADHD, which a lot of students will use near exam time for a bit of a study boost. So if someone's offered something that is supposedly safe, you know, maybe it's available on prescription to someone or technically legal, how do you suggest that they would assess the risks and can it ever actually be safe?

Diana 28:07

I love this question. I I think this is something a lot of young people are navigating. I think the first thing to say is that when it comes to mind-altering substances, there's no such thing as 100% safe, only varying levels of risk, right? And that risk is gonna depend on a lot of different factors. It's gonna depend on the person themselves, their basic physiology, like how their body and brain responds to the substance. It's gonna depend on the how strong the substance is, the substance itself, the potency, and and also the setting, right? Are they in the setting where a lot of risk taking is is occurring? So when we go into schools and we're doing prevention work, one of the first phrases that we have, we want the kids to understand is that all use equals risk. Any use of a mind-altering substance entails a certain level of risk. Now, how much that risk is going to be differs. And then that's when you get into conversations about harm reduction, right? We can all agree that there are riskier ways to do certain behaviors and less risky ways to do certain behaviors. Obviously, using an illegal drug from a person you don't know who you just met at a party that could be laced with fentanyl is going to be riskier than taking Xanax as prescribed by a doctor. Yeah. Or even taking a Xanax from your friend that's prescribed by a doctor. Yeah. Right. That act is still risky, but it's less risky than an illegal Xanax from the street. And so one of the things that we try to do when I work in schools is to make this really relevant and relatable. Because I think we'd love to live in a world where young people didn't use mind-altering substances because of how sensitive their brains are. But the reality is some of them are at 16. You know, there are places in Latin America where you can drink already at 18, certainly most places around the world. And so it's more about empowering them with real skills, which is to be able to discern in certain moments what's more risky, what's less risky.

Lily 30:34

Yeah.

Diana 30:34

So I'll give you another example. In the US right now, we have a lot of marijuana addiction and marijuana-related problems like psychosis and cannabinoid, like induced vomiting. And it's because people are vaping these really highly potent marijuana products in vape form, where they don't know the strength, they don't know if it's been laced with other things. And the fact that it's vaping means they can do it over and over again in a way that you wouldn't be able to do that if you were smoking a plant matter, right? And so if you were somebody, a young person in America who wanted to smoke marijuana, a harm reduction way to do that would be to smoke the plant matter where there's a very finite beginning and an end. And it's just the plant matter itself. It's not, you know, adulterated with like other chemicals versus vaping marijuana that you can do over and over again. So things like that are, you know, some of the practical strategies that we try to talk to young people about. Yeah.

Chris 31:39

I think in the UK, one of the things we're seeing is how widespread marijuana use is. And certainly one of the differences from when I was younger is just how openly it is consumed. And you can you can smell it coming out of cars, you can be walking behind someone down the street.

Lily 31:55

And Scotland especially. I think England's the same, yeah.

Chris 31:59

Is it's everywhere. And I think there's a policy decision there in terms of what the government and the police will do around enforcement. But culturally, it just seems to have become completely normal. I don't know what your view on that is, Lily, that it is everywhere, and there are also these supposed, you know, legal highs which are maybe easier to get hold of. What do you see?

Lily 32:24

I think you're right, like especially living in a big Scottish city, everywhere you go you can smell it. And I also have noticed issues with those I've actually never used one of those little vape thingies, but I've you see them kicking about a lot. A lot of people have them, and it's always been a bit crazy to me that you would inhale one of those things and you don't really know what's in it rather than just smoke the plant, like you were saying, because yeah, I think the fact that you can just like essentially lie in your bed and puff on it all day rather than you know you've got the stop and start action of having to get up, roll, go outside, smoke, finish, and then it's done. I think that's a big problem. I would say it's become more normalized. If you if you speak to someone who smokes a lot of cannabis, they're gonna give you the same spiel about alcohol being legal and how alcohol is very normalized, and people can go to the pub or a bar or sit at home with a bottle of wine and get drunk, and it's not as much of an issue. And I think as well, actually, because if I'm right, it's not a physically addictive substance, but it is it can have addictive effects on people for the relaxation, self-medicating aspects. So I think you usually get this spiel from people that if alcohol is as normalized as it is, why can't cannabis be? And it's not physically addictive, so I'm not addictive, I can stop whenever I want. But I think when people view it in the same way they've viewed drinking, like if you were sitting drinking every day, the way that you're sitting getting stoned every day is problematic and it does have effects, like you say, it can trigger psychosis in lots of people, so yeah, it is a big thing here. I think it comes down to lack of education in schools and in uni and things. So that's why it's really good that you're doing the work that you're doing, Diana, and that there's more information available online now. But I think people can be a bit clueless about it, to be honest.

Chris 34:24

Yeah, I think legalization for marijuana is coming in the UK. I think because it has become so prevalent, so then it can be regulated, it can be taxed, like alcohol and tobacco, but that will maybe make it a little less risky than everything people are doing with the current setup.

Lily 34:43

So yeah, when we've spoken about harm prevention, I wanted to hear a bit more about your thoughts on these kind of harm prevention initiatives, Diana, because when I've been to festivals recently, I've noticed tents popping up run by organisations like The Loop who are in the UK, and their approach is more if you're gonna take something, take it safely, as opposed to don't take anything at all, don't go near it. And in the run-up to big festivals, they usually post warnings about dodgy or overly strong potent drugs going around, advice on how to stay safe, about what to avoid mixing. So, yeah, things like that. They even offer drug testing services ahead of big events so that festival goers can be sure that what they've been sold is actually what they've been taking. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts because as you can imagine, there's been a lot of backlash against them popping up. Some people think it's encouraging drug usage. So what are your thoughts on these initiatives and whether they're encouraging certain behaviors or helping the problem?

Diana 35:49

Yeah, I think that's a really important shift and a very realistic and um helpful one because we were, you know, we just talked about how quickly the world is changing and the availability of things out there and the potency of these substances. And so ideally we'd live in a world where people, young people wouldn't won't use mind-altering substances. But you know, the reality is some will and just say no isn't going to be enough. So organizations like the Loop or in the US, we have something called dance safe. They're they're not encouraging use. They're they're trying to reduce the risk of harm for people who do decide to. Like both things can be true, right? Like prevention is the goal, but harm reduction is the safety net. Yeah. And so giving young people those really practical skills, like those that that information, and so that they can make an informed choice, why wouldn't you do that? It just seems like a no-brainer. Yeah, I just think like both things can be true. It's better not to do it, but if you are gonna do it, then here's a safer way.

Lily 37:02

Yeah, definitely. I'd have to agree.

Diana 37:05

Yeah.

Chris 37:05

If you push it underground, it becomes more dangerous and more risky, isn't it? If you acknowledge for some people that they're gonna want to take something, so it's helped them be as safe as possible.

Lily 37:16

Yeah.

Diana 37:17

Exactly.

Chris 37:18

I know the work you do is all about prevention and early intervention. What are some of the successes that you see when people do recognize that they're starting to have a problem or or parents are brave enough to have the conversations? Uh, what have you seen where people have been able to turn things around or make changes in terms of their behavior and make those healthier decisions?

Diana 37:40

Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this for 10 years. So I've seen so many remarkable stories on an individual level, but also on a school-wide level. I mean, just individually, I've had so many students, but also parents come up to me after workshops and just tell me, oh, I hadn't thought about things this way. Um now I'm actually concerned about my own use. You know, I'm concerned about my parents' use. I mean, kids like people want to talk about this stuff, you know, but they don't always have the opportunities to talk about these kind of taboo topics. And so I get a lot of appreciation from, you know, students, parents, and faculty members, just thank you, you know, for creating the space to talk about this, but also for the practical insights like how to talk to my friend. Oh, now I'm seeing that my behavior may not be as okay as I initially thought it was. And, you know, there's there's ways to collect data around this. So we can see that prevention programs have, you know, efficacy, but then there's there's also just like stories that can't be quantified, just shifts, subtle shifts in perspective or planting a seed that they're gonna take with them when they go to university later on. So the individual stories are really powerful. Um, I've had students email me months later, like, hey, I stopped smoking marijuana because of that session that I had with you. I get a few emails like that um every year. And then on a community-wide level, like once you start talking about these topics, you know, addiction starts getting framed as a health issue and not a personal failure, right? It really changes the whole energy, um, the whole culture of a school. It's not a failure of your family. Like I'm in Asia where, you know, face, like having staining face is a really, really important thing and a really big barrier to people getting help, mental health for mental health or addiction. And so the work that I'm trying to do is hey, look, I'm a person who struggled with mental health and addiction, and it's okay to talk about, and it doesn't make me a bad person. And I can, you know, rise above it. And after getting help, um, it's okay to talk about these things. So I've also seen that shift in communities, like a more cultural, yeah, cultural shift. And sometimes it's just sometimes it takes a while, but you're just you I can see that like we're starting to plant those seeds, and you know, a few people are feeling more comfortable, you know, opening up and and being real with their experiences.

Chris 40:34

And I think there's a generational shift, it seems to me. Your generation, Lily, are much more open talking about the wider kind of mental health issues than mine was or or is. And addiction and substance misuse is part of that. So yeah, it's absolutely needed. And it sounds like the work that you're doing is making a real impact if you think about all the potential harms someone may have done to themselves or been exposed to from not changing their behaviors or thinking differently about these kind of things that can go on for for years to come for the rest of their lives, which is amazing. So if someone wants to know more about the work that you do, Diana, um, how can they get in touch or where can they find you?

Diana 41:20

I'm most active on LinkedIn. So they can reach me at Diana Who McDowell on LinkedIn. I don't have other social media outlets yet, but I'd like to work on that this year. And also my website, EastWestpreven.com.

Chris 41:36

Okay, and we'll put those links in the show notes so that it's easy for people to get to. It's been a fascinating conversation. I'm really pleased to get an A star for parenting. So thank you for that. Uh, because I've got two adult children now, so they are kind of left to their own devices. And I think you'll probably remember, Lily, uh mum's mantra when you were going out and when Charlie was going out was was make good decisions.

Lily 42:00

Yeah.

Chris 42:00

You know, we can't stop you doing things, but you've just got to make good decisions when you're faced with these kind of issues. So thanks, Dan. I I think what you've talked about is going to be really useful for both parents my age as well as you know, Gen Z and people uh Lily's age has been great.

Lily 42:17

Thank you both.

Chris 42:18

Lily, anything else you you would like to say as we start to wrap up?

Lily 42:21

Yeah, I just wanted to say that it was really nice to be part of a conversation. Everything we've spoken about, about creating a safer open space for these conversations because you know, my generation, like you say, are definitely doing a really good job trying to include it in the wider discussion of mental health, but I still think there's a little way to go, and I really like what you said, Diana, about framing it as part of the conversation around health rather than these things being personal failings or things that people need to feel shame about. So I actually enjoyed it, and yeah, there's a lot to think about going forward when I'm at festivals. If I see these recurring party animal characters, maybe I now feel a little bit more equipped to have conversations with them. So yeah, it was really lovely to chat to. Thanks so much.

Chris 43:15

Yeah, thank you.

Diana 43:16

My pleasure. Thanks, Lily. Thanks, Chris. Keep in touch.

Chris 43:20

So, what's your reflection, Lily, in terms of what you'll take from this?

Lily 43:24

I really enjoyed the part where we were talking about what to do if someone's still functioning and it might not initially appear as if they have a problem, but shifting the conversation away from the black and white, addicted, addict, non addicted, non addict, and more into is someone or am I displaying problematic substance usage habits? And I thought that was a really good way to approach the conversation because it's it's not always just the worst case scenario, and sometimes people can get on with their daily lives, but they maybe just Need that extra little bit of support. So yeah, I find that really interesting. What about you?

Chris 44:05

If you and Charlie were several years younger, you know, back in those mid to late teenage years, Diana's advice about how to handle tricky situations, so that code word or emoji, you know, to come and pick me up from a party if I was still operating dad's taxi, that is a really good idea, you know, at the point at which uh teenagers are starting to go out, exposed to maybe alcohol, tobacco, other things. And if they feel uncomfortable, you'd hope they make good decisions. Just having that mechanism whereby they can say, I don't want to be in this situation anymore. It would take, I know for me, it would take an awful lot of willpower to not want to have the chat in the car on the way home. But the advice to just let it go, it's no questions asked, deal with it when everyone's a bit more sensible afterwards.

Lily 44:52

And that builds so much trust.

Chris 44:54

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, I think that was really important. But overall, it's a conversation that seems to continue to be opening up about mental health more generally, and that's a good thing.

Lily 45:06

For our next episode, we'll be looking at people pleasing, something that most of us do, but probably look back on and wish we hadn't. Why we do it and how we can have different responses.

Chris 45:18

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Gen XD Exchange.