SPEAKER_00 0:06

If you're the type to say yes to projects you don't have time for, or plans you have zero intention of attending, just to escape the three seconds of awkwardness it takes to say no, that episode ends for you.

Chris 0:18

Welcome to the Gen F exchange. I'm Chris Perkins, Genet Parent, now 50 something empty next up.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

And I'm Lily Perkins, Gen Z Career Explorer. We spoke and take on career choices, work, and life in general. So whether you're a genetic parent trying to figure out midlife talent is or a Gen Z young professional or student that growing out adulthood, you're in the right place.

Chris 0:43

Today we're diving into people pleasing. Why we choose hours, days, or even weeks of resentment over three seconds of discomfort, and how to finally stop trading your sanity for someone else's convenience.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So when we were planning our next episode, I suggested this topic as this is something that I definitely struggle with massively. And like many of us, I'm terrible for biting off more than I can chew. And that leaves me feeling deflated and ends up putting a strain on my relationships. And Dad, you said you'd struggled with this as well, especially around work.

Chris 1:20

Yeah, I think work and elsewhere, I know with family stuff and with friends. I mean, I would always want to help out a friend or a family member, but sometimes I do find myself kind of defaulting to yes almost without thinking about it, and actually then regretting it because of the impact that might have on me. So at work, it is wanting to be a good team member, to not say no to things, but then I think you've also got to kind of recognise your limits, what you can take on that isn't going to involve having to work long hours or extra hours or do a piece of work that maybe isn't as good quality as it could have been because you've had too much to do, you've taken too much on.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Exactly. So this episode's going to discuss boundary setting, how to communicate when you are at your limit, but also it's important to talk about when you have responsibilities, when you can be a good friend and teammate and show up for people and where the difference is there. So starting off with the concept of people pleasing, a quick Google search will tell you a people pleaser is someone with an emotional, often unconscious need to prioritize others' needs and feelings over their own, frequently at the expense of their own well-being to gain approval or avoid conflict. And it's defined as a behavioural pattern, not a medical diagnosis, rooted in fear of rejection, low self-worth, or past conditioning. So if we look at the UK, approximately 49% of people in the UK identify as people pleasers. So the issue is widespread, and women are significantly more likely than men to exhibit this behaviour. So for women that number sits at 56%, and for men it's at 42. So with all this in mind, we can appreciate that it's really common, but let's also begin by establishing that people pleasing typically comes from a good place. It means you care about other people's feelings, time and energy, and you don't want to let people down. Yep. But what we need to focus on in this conversation is where we come into that equation. So why don't we think about our own feelings, time and energy in the same way? And I think for me, this fear of confrontation that I've built up around saying no definitely comes from not wanting to be perceived as difficult, you know, lazy, a slacker, whatever it may be. Yeah. And especially for women, this is definitely a symptom of some of the social conditioning that we experience to be nice and agreeable, give yourself up in whatever way to others. So I actually have some more statistics specifically on women, and this is why it's so important for many of us, women in particular, to become more comfortable setting boundaries. So if we have a look at how this negatively impacts life, over half of people pleasing women, so 59%, feel like this trait makes their lives harder, while only 33% of men feel the same. And 46% of women feel responsible for how others feel compared to 35% of men. 43% of women struggle to set boundaries compared to 32% of men, and some of the long-term effects linked to people pleasing behavior can lead to increased anxiety, but also chronic pain conditions and severe burnout due to constant emotional labor. So it's common, the issues that it presents are needing dealt with. So let's get into that. Let's get into what we can do to help solve this.

Chris 5:00

Yeah, those stats are interesting. Almost half the population overall say they're a people pleaser, but obviously excuse a bit more towards women and they see it's having more of an impact on them. And I guess that's probably down to just social conditioning. Yeah. Men feeling they're more able to say no or feel less bad about saying no, although a good chunk of them still say they are people pleasers. So there's a lot going on there. I think saying yes when you mean no in order to avoid conflict is being perceived at a certain way. You're actually creating well, you're being dishonest with yourself, aren't you? In terms of saying yes when you'd prefer not to. You're kind of holding back the truth of who you are to control how other people feel about you. You know, you don't want them to feel bad. You don't want it to reflect badly on you. You're not being honest with them and you're withholding that information from them.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah, exactly. And then this is where the problems arise because you feel resentment towards whoever has backed you into a corner with plans or favours, even though you could have said no, and most importantly, you feel angry with yourself for not saying something. So, you know, let's say I do go along with these plans that I've agreed to, even though I'm up to my neck in uni, I've got shifts, whatever, I've got Hannah's old washing to do, the house needs a clean. I could really use a day to myself, but I go along, I feel tired, and maybe then haven't got enough time to do my hair, find an outfit, and I'm feeling insecure. Maybe I drink more than I'd planned because I'm there now, you know, I may as well, and then I feel rotten the next day, and I'm even further behind. So it's a pretty vicious cycle.

Chris 6:44

Yeah, I think we've all been caught in that from time to time, and it's obviously something you have been aware of for a while. Years ago, you said something to mum around this which has stuck with her ever since. I don't know if you remember this exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

No, I remember, I think.

Chris 7:03

Or where you heard it. Something was going on, and she was running round like trying to please everyone, and you said, Mum, why do you set yourself on fire to keep others warm?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Exactly. Make drop.

Chris 7:18

And she's never forgotten that. And she quotes that back sometimes that she is no longer setting herself on fire to keep others warm.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Good.

Chris 7:25

Do you remember where you heard that or why that came to mind?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

No, I can't remember. Maybe it was online, but I need to track down the person who said it to me so I can say thanks on behalf of Mum. But it is a good little saying, and it's something that I have been trying to implement in recent years since I became aware of it. So I'm glad that's helping Mum.

Chris 7:46

I think it articulates it really well, doesn't it? You you will do yourself harm to some extent in an effort to serve other people.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

And then we can't serve anyone because you're on fire. Exactly.

Chris 7:57

Yeah, not get healthy. Yeah. The situations I find myself in are wanting to be a good friend, family member, team member. So the default is kind of yes, but it's that automatic response at what not thinking about what are the implications. Do I have the time? Do I have the capacity to take this on? So we've covered what it is and why so many of us do it. So let's move on to what we can actually do about it if we want to improve this situation or change this situation. And a good place to start might just be changing perspective. So instead of asking, how do I say no? Uh, because that might seem mean or feeling like I'm letting the person down, if you think about what I am saying no to by saying yes to this, it maybe gives you an opportunity to reflect on that because every time you say yes to what someone is asking you to do, you have to be saying no to something else. So, you know, me saying yes to join a late call at work is saying no to time in the evening to relax, or like when you and Charlie were younger, it could be missing out on bedtime, that kind of thing. You've got to consider, well, what's the kind of consequence? And it's about setting boundaries, I suppose, in terms of what is appropriate and what you will permit and what you will hold the line for.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

I think that's actually a really great way to re-center yourself in the conversation. So if you're actually able to slow down, be realistic about what you need to do and bring your own priorities to the front of your mind, it makes saying no that little bit easier. And I guess that's yeah, like you say, a good place to start. If you can start to bring down some of those mental blocks around the confrontation side of things, and a lot of the time it's not even confrontation, we make up in our mind that it's gonna be this huge, huge big deal when in reality, as long as you're polite, you're gonna be fine most of the time. Something that I've been trying to do a lot more by introducing a bit of breathing space when I'm, you know, making plans, agreeing to tasks, whatever. So let me check my calendar and get back to you instead of agreeing to something on the spot. And that gives you a bit of time to actually check your calendar and see, do I have anything on that I need to be doing? But can kind of buffer that interaction a little bit so you feel less overwhelmed in the moment.

Chris 10:19

Yeah. Exactly that. I think it's just taking a pause so you can consider what you want to do next, not just being on autopilot. I think you can acknowledge a request from someone or or thank them for it. Thanks for asking me to get involved. Let me check my capacity, let me check my calendar, all of those kind of things gives you an opportunity to reflect on it, not in the moment, not having to provide that immediate response. Introducing that pause gives you an opportunity to regulate your nervous system a bit, think things through. That can be really helpful. So when someone asks you for a favor, your brain is interpreting no as like a social threat. You know, that would be a bad thing to do. So you say yes to appease them, just to make the anxiety stop. But actually, there's a few things we can do before we agree to something that we will immediately regret. So the first behavior change is the five-second rule. So when a request comes in, count to five before you open your mouth. That just breaks that autopilot reflex. You're proving to your brain that you can survive five seconds of silence without the world ending. And before you answer, asking yourself, if I say yes to this today, how am I gonna feel about this person or this situation when the event actually happens, maybe two or three weeks from now? Yeah. You think, well, is that the situation I want to find myself in?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, if the answer is I'm gonna resent them for asking, I'm gonna resent being there when it finally comes, then saying yes in that moment wouldn't be truthful. So in these instances, a polite, quote unquote disappointing but honest answer is more respectful to this person and to yourself than what you would consider a pleasing but dishonest one. And then I think for me, imagining that situation, imagining the silence and the discomfort of that if I was taking a pause would be one thing, and then imagining the discomfort of actually saying no to someone afterwards would be another thing. But I think it's really important to try sitting with that discomfort because that's what we're actively avoiding is feeling like we're in an uncomfortable situation. We have to let someone down and we have to disappoint someone. Like I said before, it usually doesn't end up being as big a deal as we've made it in our heads, but just practising the feeling of guilt, the feeling the feelings of saying no and getting into a bit of a rhythm with it will make it easier. I think, especially if you can do that in small doses, like almost microdosing saying no to people or pulling people up for things. But for example, if the restaurant gets your order wrong or there's something that you want to change, be nice to service staff, obviously. But you can kind of practice saying, No, this is something I ordered. Other instances, if it's like a movie your friend wants to go and see, and you're not really fussed saying, Oh, I'm not really keen to see that film, but maybe another time we can go and see something else that we both like. Yeah. And doing it in those kind of relaxed environments helps you build it up, build up that muscle for when you really need to make a firm no on something a bit bigger.

Chris 13:37

Yeah, that that's a good idea. It's those low-stakes situations where you can find the vocabulary to not immediately agree to whatever the request is, kind of in a low-risk way. Yeah. And build, as you say, build that muscle, build that habit for when it's a bit more serious. I think in a work setting, everyone tends to be busy, got a lot on at work. So I think there's a distinction between if the request is coming from your boss versus a coworker, but the the issue is still the same. So if there's another request coming from your boss, the tendency is to want to do what they say. But they also have to recognize if you're pretty much at capacity, you can't just constantly take on more and more. So if there's a request coming in, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a conversation around thanks for asking me to get involved with an element of this project or whatever it might be, of everything else that I have going on, what should we deprioritize, or what would you want me to stop doing to take that on? And then you maybe get into a conversation around priorities and recognition that there are other more important things than this other thing. And if it's a coworker, it's a slightly different dynamic. But if they're asking you to take something on, you can still have the conversation with them about I appreciate what you're saying, but I need to check with my boss or let me work through the other priorities I have at the moment and see if I can fit this in, see if I can take this on rather than just agreeing to it. Then you can go back and say I've had the conversation or I've moved some things around, or I've discussed this with my boss, and this isn't something I can cover at the moment, but then help them find a solution. Yep. Who else do we think might be able to pick this up? Or is this something that can get pushed back to, you know, next week or the week after to find some common ground so that it's still getting done, but you haven't just automatically said yes and all of a sudden take something on for yourself which is going kind of beyond your limits.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I think what you're saying is good as well about placing a bit of an emphasis on, okay, well, if you want me to pick this up, something's something's got to be slow, you know, that way it is a dialogue and hopefully there can be a compromise there. And I guess that applies to social situations as well.

Chris 15:53

Yeah. I think that the hardest part though is when you hear yourself say no, there's then going to be a reaction to that, and we maybe overestimate how negative the reaction will be. Yeah. Actually, most of the time, if you say, sorry, I've not got the capacity to take that on, the other person probably isn't going to go crazy. They're going to have a conversation with you about who else might be able to take it on, what else is happening, how might you shift the timelines on things. So it's not wanting to be worried about what their reaction might be. They might be a bit disappointed, but you can find a way to figure it out, and their emotions are their responsibility rather than yours. So it's about that kind of boundary setting thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Something that I'm really bad for. I don't know, you're quite concise, you're quite direct. I think hopefully not so much now, but sometimes I can give like a 500-word essay on the reasons why I can't help, or any excuses that I've got. But what I've actually learned is that you doing that, you over-explaining, is just another form of people pleasing because that's you trying to get them to approve of your refusal rather than just saying, No, I'm at my limit, sorry. You're coming up with 500 different excuses and giving them all these reasons, and that's another thing that it's like a more subtle way that we do it.

Chris 17:09

So and I mean I can be wordy sometimes, a lot of the time, some people might say, but that attempt to try and be direct actually comes from a piece of advice that I had from granddad really early on in my career, which was never over-explain. Yep. I I think I would do it with him. I'd maybe make excuses for not having done something, or I would just waffle on and he just said never overexplain. If you can't do something, it's like, look, sorry, I'd really love to help, just can't take that on at the moment. If they want an explanation, you can give it. But if the tendency is to give them this long story about all the things you've got going on, that's just not necessary. Yeah. Sorry, can't do that right now, but let's talk about when I might be able to fit it in later or whatever it might be, but not overexplaining. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I'd like to talk about what you said just a couple of minutes ago there about the disappointment that it might lead to when you say no to someone's plans or turn down a task or whatever, and thinking about people's other people's emotions, which are their responsibilities and how we have to maintain our boundaries still. I think this is where it gets a bit tricky for people, certainly for me, because a lot of the time I feel like, how do I know the difference between setting a healthy boundary or then actually just being a flake or lazy, a bad worker, a bad friend? Where is it that we draw the line?

Chris 18:32

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. Sometimes being a good friend or a reliable co-worker means doing things you don't feel like doing, but that's just part of being in the relationship uh with the friend or the colleague, you know, being part of that community. And there's a fine line between protecting yourself and just being flaky. I would say the difference is more around the intent. So are you saying no because you're prioritizing your own well-being, or are you saying no because you just can't be bothered and you don't want to put in the effort in a relationship? And if that's the case, that's a separate issue. If you're saying no because you are prioritizing your well-being, that's a good thing. And you could have a conversation around that. I think if you get a reputation for never agreeing to take things on, whatever the opposite of people pleasing is, then people disregarding. Yeah, that's not healthy for the relationship either. So with you, for example, Lily, it could be showing up to a friend's gig, uh staying late at work to deal with a a crisis, even if you're a bit tired, that's not people pleasing. That's just being a good friend, being a good teammate. But if you cross over into being a difficult friend or colleague, if you expect everyone else to show up for you, but you're never willing to put yourself out for them, that's just not fair. That's just not equitable in terms of how most relationships should exist.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, I guess the goal is to just be more intentional with your yeses rather than like what you described earlier on, where it's just a compulsive knee-jerk reaction to agree to things. Um and I guess if you can say no when you're at your limit, then it means that your yeses hold more weight, if that makes sense. Like when you show up for people, they know that you're there because you chose to be and not because you were too afraid to say no.

Chris 20:25

Yeah. Because if eventually we'll get exhausted showing up for everyone all of the time, and then it all gets diluted. Yeah. So if we were gonna challenge each other to get a bit better at this and think about where we have an opportunity to be a bit more assertive around um our boundaries and thinking through what we're agreeing to, what would be a situation you might have coming up in the next week or so where you could apply some of this?

SPEAKER_00 20:55

So nothing's happened yet that is worrying me, but I have a group project coming up in uni. And yeah, as we see a lot in group projects, there's always a couple of people who don't want to pull their weight, and there's always one or two people who end up taking on a lot more than they had planned, and I'm hoping that I'm not gonna be in that situation, but if I am, I think that's a perfect kind of opportunity to practice these things, and then also like even sometimes when I'm at work and you get asked to stay a bit later because someone's sick, it obviously I'm happy to help out my team when I can, but there's been some times when you think to yourself, I'm rotted for this event, I'm shattered, I've got things to do when I get home. So I think that would be another example. But something that I could really, really focus on is the intentionality and my social friendship side of all this because I think I'm good at showing up to things even when I'm tired, but sometimes I definitely need to get my Priorities in order, as we've discussed, there's a fine line between being a supportive friend and being there for your friends, but then also you're sacrificing your own time. I have a lot of uni to be doing, I want to be picking up more work. So finding that balance, being more intentional with my yeses rather than just agreeing to everything and then feeling burnt out. So that would be me.

Chris 22:22

Yeah. And I think when you're at work, if you create this pattern, if you set this precedent, you know, to bosses or colleagues, if you are a bit of a pushover in terms of always agreeing to come in when you're not on shift or stay on shift.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

You're always going to be targeted with those requests.

Chris 22:38

Absolutely, because they know that you'll say yes, you won't push back. And that just makes the situation even worse. You get more resentful, more tired out. So I think you do have to kind of draw a line and set your limits, and that's reasonable.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

What would you see your limits are? Is there anything you can put into practice this week or next?

Chris 22:57

Well, in a couple of weeks, no, Mum and I go away on holiday. So what's going to be really important is that I wrap up as many of the loose ends as I can with the things I'm working on and create a clear handover for my boss and maybe some colleagues. And not everyone in the team is necessarily aware uh of when I'll be, you know, finishing up for holiday. So if incoming requests for new things come in, I'm gonna have to bounce those back and explain I don't have the capacity to take them on and that then I'll be off and help them find a way of getting things done because I can't do them. So in a way it's kind of convenient. I'm away on holiday, I'm physically not there to do it, but it's an opportunity to practice exactly this because it I have done that in the past and have taken things on in the run-up to holiday, and then you find you're working till sort of gone midnight, you know, the night before you're about to get up early for a flight just to try and finish things off and email things out to people, and that's kind of crazy. I did have a a colleague years ago who in his previous job said he would tell people he was going on holiday the day before he was actually going. Oh, very clever. So not as much stuff would come in, which was great, but he could have actually just told them when he was going on holiday and stopped the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Set the boundaries. Yeah, he's buzzy, not what we want on a holiday, not a relaxed vape. Yeah. And then on that note, I guess it's kind of similar, but I'd love to know one thing that you've learned from our discussion, or one thing that you'll take from our discussion.

Chris 24:45

I didn't realise it was quite so prevalent. No, that it is half the population basically describe themselves as people bleasers. And I guess that's not altogether surprising, but I think the thing I will take from that is to be more aware perhaps of colleagues, friends, family members who maybe default to saying yes. And if you pick up on the signals that actually have you got too much on, is it okay? Because the tendency is half of us tend to to do it. And more so with women and uh with men. So there's some interesting distinctions there, but it is far more common than I thought.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yeah, that's actually a really good perspective, like in a work environment, for example, maybe before you ask a favor, you know, someone might agree to it straight off the bat, but maybe asking them a little bit further, what have you got on at the moment? Like, do you have the capacity for this? And just giving them that second opportunity to do what we've discussed. Pause, let me check my calendar and get back to you, all these things. So that's a nice perspective. Maybe we can try and curb the people-pleasing fem phenomenon by actually giving people more of a chance to say no to things as well as setting your own boundaries.

Chris 25:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah.

Chris 25:56

What about you though? What will you take from this? What will you do differently?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I think for me, the things we discuss, like the actual methods, are really helpful. I have been getting better. I do remember my little catchphrase that I said to mum, but also I think when I was looking at the stats and seeing that there is a bit of a disparity between how this affects men and women, I think it's really, really important as a young woman, especially a young woman entering the workforce soon. It's really important to set those boundaries and not to become a doormat, not to become the person that people are always asking extra of. Definitely. So through a feminist lens, um, setting boundaries for the women, for the girls.

Chris 26:38

Absolutely. Because I think when you do enter kind of full-time work, the more junior team members often get asked to do a whole load of stuff, and of those, I bet the more junior women get asked a lot more than the more junior men. So yeah, try and even up the score. Do your bit. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, so this was a good little refresher of some tools to put into practice for both of us, um, our work lives socially, and I hope it was the same for you, Dad. I hope that we're both going to be putting all of our boundaries in place and protecting our peace.

Chris 27:18

It is a good reminder that we sometimes can develop habits that don't always serve us. And whether it's our social circles or work lives, sometimes you just need to pause and make sure you're taking time for yourself, you know, protecting your well-being, as we've said. If you found the episode useful, it would please us greatly if you would give us a five-star rating or even write a short review for the podcast. Uh, we love the feedback and that helps us plan uh future topics. In our next episode, we are going to be talking about the topic of life design, with a guest joining us who has recently published a book on exactly that topic and has led an unconventional career of his own up to this point, which has led him to coin the term the undefinables. So if you feel you don't need to fit into any particular category, have a listen out for that one. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Gen XD Exchange.