Chris 0:05

Have you ever felt boxed in? Living a life that wasn't entirely by design, but you don't feel you can break out of it. Whether you're Gen Z or Gen X, you need to hear what my guest today has to say about life design. He'll show you how to design a unique life that sustains your energy and Welcome to the Gen XD Exchange. I'm Chris Perkins, Gen X parent now 50 something empty nester.

Lily 0:31

And I'm Lily Perkins, Gen Z Career Explorer. We spoke and takes on career choices, work, and life in general. So whether you're a Gen X parent trying to figure out midlife challenges, or a Gen Z young professional or student figuring out adulthood, you're in the right place.

Chris 0:48

Charlie Rogers is the author of Undefinable Life Design, and his life so far is certainly not easily categorized. His entrepreneurial spirit started at 14 with a sweet shop in the playground. He was buying in bulk from home bargains and then selling small meal deal packs at school until he got shut down by the teachers. He then got into running, went to Loughborough University to do international business, and turned down a corporate placement to bootstrap his own company. Shortly after, he decided to compete in Iron Man Triathlons, but had a bike crash while training at 63 kilometers an hour and went over a crash barrier and down a mountain. He recovered from that and went on to represent GB at the Iron Man World Championships, and then realized sport was distracting him from what he really wanted to do, which was combine purpose, people, and play. Which is when he launched his undefinable community for those who live beyond conventional labels. And from everything he's learned along the way, he's just published his book, Undefinable Life Design. Charlie, welcome to the Gen X Exchange.

Charlie 1:58

Hi, Chris. Hi Lily, great to be here.

Chris 2:00

Yeah, thanks for joining us. I have really been looking forward to this. And in terms of your background, Lily and I have both uh had a go at triathlons in the past. You have certainly had a career that is beyond conventional labels. You've packed a lot in in is it 27 years so far? 27 years so far, yeah. And I guess we've both pivoted a little. Lily, you changing courses at uni was probably the biggest one for you.

Lily 2:29

It was. And I feel like time to time as a bit of an understatement for me, given that Jade likes to joke that I have a new job every time she sees me. So yeah, big relatability there.

Chris 2:41

Yeah, and for me, career's pivoted a couple of times. Started out thinking I wanted to open a record shop, uh, spend some time in retail, then HR marketing, and now coaching. So there's a lot we could relate to in the book, which we'll get into. I guess to start with, let's talk about this idea of undefinable. Who or what is an undefinable?

Charlie 3:03

So ironically, I'm gonna define the undefinable. And the way I describe them is someone who lives beyond labels. And what that means is that when they see a person as their counterpart, they look to connect to them beyond what they see on the surface. They're looking for shared values, they're looking for ways of seeing the world that overlap instead of looking for external labels to be part of the same identity. The best way I can describe this is rather than us all being triathlete and joining a triathlon club, it's we're all very different people with very different interests, but we have shared values and ways of seeing the world that bring us closer together than anything before.

Chris 3:42

Right. And the book uses the metaphor of a mountain ascent with three phases. So starting by building your purpose Acropolis at the summit, and then making sure you've got everything in your energy toolkit for the ascent, and finally the income pathway. Can you talk us through that framework?

Charlie 4:00

Yeah, it's made me think about the um the default path has so previously been a career ladder. It's been so up to the organization to shape it. And they've often said that it's like a linear progression. If you just give enough time at each segment, you'll progress up to the right throughout the organization and throughout the profession. But what I've done here is replace that with your own ascent that you can choose your own climb through. And I feel there are parallels we're always moving towards upwards to the right in some meaningful way, but there are also differences of you're now having agency and choice versus being given a default ladder that's already out there and existing for you. So instead of climbing a ladder out there, you're now choosing your own ascent. So imagine yourself at the base of this mountain, and at the top, you start with your end destination. You have to know where you're going to start your expedition. And that is the purpose of Acropolis. That is the ideal life that you'd like to live. It's a destination that you're going to aim for. It's formed of the materials of your many interests. And then from the materials, you build the foundations. The foundations are where you select your categories. So if we like running, cycling, and swimming, which it feels like the three of us do, then we might like triathon or it might be part of a bigger adventure sports category that we might feel we relate to. And the fact that we can continue growing into new sports. We might like hiking that might be sort of somewhat separate but somewhat similar. And those categories give us enough room to grow, but enough space to focus to. And then from the foundations, you then build the keystone. This sits at the top of the purpose Acropolis. It is your golden thread. It connects your categories together into a purpose statement that can guide you. And it draws out the who that you feel most called to help and the transformation of the how of the way in which you help them as well. And then you shelter that keystone with the roof of your signature expression. And this is your unique way of showing up in the world. And then I use all of that to finally place the pillars, which are the value streams that hold together this ideal life. Some are monetized that are known as income streams that you might be more familiar with, but other ones are not monetized. They are our family, our friends, our routines that support that ideal life as well. So that is the purpose Acropolis. And then secondly, is the energy toolkit. These are all of the tools that you'll need to give yourself the capacity to take on the climb. So it includes the flask, which is the three fuels of purpose, profit, and play, the Isaacs, how you anchor yourself to your social environment, your physical environment, your intention environment, your field guide, how do you learn from those that walk before you and find some shortcuts up the ascent, the stopwatch, how do you pace your progress? Sometimes you might be sprinting in some parts of life, other times you might be jogging, might be walking, or you might even be resting. Intentional rest is a big part of it as well. And then you also take on the income pathway. So you first build enough runway by going to base camp. So you save enough progress towards the ideal life, either in savings or in momentum. And then you plant your flag, you find your first hundred advocates who care about your golden thread, you share it online, you build an audience of people that want to show up for you and want to advocate for what you're building. You then get a foothold, so you connect with them and offer them something that resonates. And you experiment until you find it, you go through a loop of learning until you get there. And then you construct a beacon where you signal the credibility that you've now built. So you showcase some testimonials, you get some input from those that have enjoyed what you're experiencing, you know, are building it alongside you. And then you build a signpost, you price your value in many ways. You no longer have to earn through just your time. You can now earn through your outcomes, through equity, through a profit share, many other ways that describe in the book as well. And finally, you place the stairway towards the final ascent, which is where you productize your time. So this is where you dedicate what doesn't matter and you focus on the bits that do, and you use that to build a product that can outlast you and can reach people without you even being in the room itself. So for me, that is the book, but that could be a course, that could be a business asset itself. It could be many ways of building what I call a magnum opus, like a great work that exists beyond you. Then finally, you climb those stairs with your backpack on and into the halls of your purpose Acropolis, and you look around a little while, you see, oh, here's the ideal life that I thought I'd love to live. And maybe you gather some friends for a party, a celebration, a book launch, perhaps, and then you rest up a little while, you look outside and you see beyond it many more mountains behind that you now have the capacity, the skills, the knowledge to now go and ascend hereafter.

Chris 8:51

Woo. Yeah, really timely, I think, given how fluid and fragmented careers have become, and people are looking for different ways of generating income streams and kind of reflecting on what they're going to do if they've been disrupted with what's going on at the moment. And you give them all sorts of options. Yeah, it is uh a fascinating framework. Thanks for sharing that with us. Yeah.

Lily 9:13

I was getting onto the same thing there. I like how there's such an attention to detail, and it's quite an intricate layered framework, but it's a much better fit for what we have today than what you've described with the ladder. So extremely useful. If we start off with the purpose Acropolis, like you described, that begins with mapping out your interests. And I was just wondering for someone my age, just about to start out on this ascent, how do I find mine when I feel like I've maybe not actually done enough yet to know what I'm interested in work-wise, especially because there's so much out there. So, what can we do to begin?

Charlie 9:54

So, start by reframing what have you done so far. So, you might experience that you've not yet had a long career, should we call it, but you have done a lot with your life, yeah. You're in your mid to late 20s, yeah. You're you've built enough of a life here to know somewhat of what you're interested in. Maybe you're in a phase of discovery, of it's going out there and testing new things and iterating and learning and it's growing faster than perhaps those that might be later in life, and that's okay. But you do have a lot of materials, yeah. Like I'm sure you have interests like the triathlon that you've described. I'm sure you have things that you loved in childhood. I use the framework of, say, inherited, those ones that perhaps your parents passed on to you. So it's clearly a triathlon shared love here. But maybe there's also a podcasting, speaking to cruel people and being connected as a family. Like it's probably interests around that that you kind of brought up in or even inherited to your genes. There are then outdated versions of yourself. So when you're 18, you're probably like quite different things to who you are now. So looking back at that one, and now looking back at who you are, it's like, why do I like that? And why do I like what I am now? So it's current interests. So there's the ones that right now you might look at your week and you pulled up your Google calendar, you can see some interest that you might have in that, quite obviously. There are also hidden ones of maybe you haven't got it as a calendar block. It's not a hobby that you do regularly, but it's something you're you're thinking about all the time and you're talking to other people and you're reading up on. Like an interest can be beyond just something that's already a calendar slot, it can be something that you're wanting to pursue as well. And that leads into the last two types, which is the soon interest. So maybe you've got something in six months' time, maybe you've got a trip away with friends where you're going to explore a new country. Why are you going there? Like, what about it? Is there a particular type of exercise you're doing, an adventure, or is it that country's culture that quite inspires you? And then is there ideal interests if we took away the constraints of time, money, or self-belief? Would you go skydiving? Would you become a base jumper? Like, are there those interests that you'd love to explore? And I'm sure there's a few of them as well. So looking at it through the lens of interests first rather than through career progression and where you already are frees you more to think creatively around the different options available to you.

Lily 12:08

Okay, great. Yeah. And then I guess with Gen Z as well, another thing we're often told is we have to hustle, monetize these hobbies and interests that we've got, have side hustles. And you talk about in the book about finding a good enough job so that you're not pouring all of your energy into something that you know isn't your long term. So, what would you suggest as to how to find the right balance between getting some stability, being solid on your feet, but then also being able to develop your own projects, develop those interests that you have more, and then have the space to explore those different interests.

Charlie 12:44

So it will completely depend on the individual and the circumstances. But while you're in your sort of like late teens, early 20s, maybe just at a uni, depends on the person. But perhaps you have a year or two, maybe you can stay with your parents a bit longer. Okay, cool. That can offer you a little bit of an advantage that perhaps hasn't been offered to generations before. And it's like, how can you lean to that? Yeah, how can you think about, okay, can I go and try and land some unpaid work for someone that I would love to get paid work from if I go and give them two weeks of my time and I can prove my value, then it can convert into something that's even more aligned. So I'd say in that situation, I'd lean into playing higher risk strategies of finding the ideal mentor, the ideal guide that's a few steps ahead of you, and testing if their life is the one you actually want to live, if you have that family support and circumstance. If you don't, then you're looking for more of that good enough job, that first foot on the ladder that can get you something, even if it's completely unrelated to the ideal life that you want, but offers you that stability where you can then pay rent somewhere, you can live in shared accommodation perhaps, or feel that, okay, I actually am making some progress. And then with the rest of your time that you have, people seem to think about careers as being like nine to five, 40 hours a week. But we have evenings, we have weekends, and if anything, you have the most energy in your 20s. So, like using that, leaning into it and thinking, okay, rather than spending the weekend, I don't know, a bit hungover. That's probably an assumption, not everyone knows that, of course. But can I go and get up a bit early and spend a couple of hours writing? I literally wrote my newsletter every week for two years. Like that was my Sunday for like five hours every Sunday for literally two years. So I spent that time actively in that way. And then when I think about the community I've built, I don't really think about it as work. I think about it as a mixture of like fun, purpose, play. And it is also work sometimes. And there is me sorting out memberships and me thinking about some issues in the community or these challenges that have come up. And that is by all virtues work, but it happens in say last night I was replying to a voice note at half ten. So it's kind of expanding your opportunity of what work is and trying to find the ones that don't feel like work so that when you come back and maybe you've had a long day at the job that is the good enough one, you don't then feel exhausted and unable to take on the bits that you actually really want in school.

Lily 15:02

I think this call is coming at a really good time because I was literally phoning dad and my mom as well earlier today, having a bit of a like post-uni crash out, thinking about what next year is gonna look like for me. But you make a good point. I do have a lot of energy, I have a lot of things that I could be leaning into. How do you feel about me moving home next year, Dad, and making the most of that?

Chris 15:27

I I won't make any commitments here, but that is something that we can discuss um because it does kind of give you some space, you know, if if that is an option.

Lily 15:37

I think what's the session.

Chris 15:39

Well, that's true. Yes. Uh we've got used to having the space with you uh not living at home full-time. I think what struck me, Charlie, was talking about undefinables, it's kind of changing the definition of the conventional career, you know, the nine to five. I am building a part-time business beside a salaried role, and a lot of that falls into evenings and weekends because that's the time that's available. And if you're enthusiastic about it, you can find the time and energy to do that. But you know, you still need to be careful, you're not going to burn out. But there's a lot of flexibility that perhaps sometimes we overlook, thinking in more conventional ways.

Charlie 16:13

Yeah, for sure. And even I'd say there's even more opportunity now if you can get the good enough job to be a remote role. That even just purely the commute time of the going to the office and returning and the energy train that that is of wow, when I ever find myself commuting at the same time as like 8 a.m. or 6 p.m. in London, it's wild, like be so packed in, you're like a sardine across the city. And I feel like that can be really training as well. So if the good enough job can be a virtual one, it offers you even more flexibility to do a couple of hours in the morning and start nine. Like, wow, that's something that's unoffered to someone that even starts at the same time of nine, but then has to prepare themselves to go against the office and then community across. So there are definitely ways of thinking about it that can offer even more space than your week to.

Lily 16:56

Definitely. And then um a little bit of a pivot here. I wanted to talk about AI. Um, who doesn't want to talk about AI right now, right, guys? Um, but we're starting to see the impact AI is having on what were the safe bet entry-level rules. And you talk about how AI is automating the average. So, again, if I'm just starting out, how do I develop what you call my signature expression that AI can't replace?

Charlie 17:23

Yeah. So it'll take a while, yeah. I think the first recognition is that this comes from a level of mastery. And I talk about instead of being professional in one thing, which if we relate to our sport metaphor, is being the triathlete that wins gold. Like, yes, we hear about them, they get the medals, you might be Alex Yi. But what about all those that came silver, bronze, or didn't even make the podium? They put about the same amount of time into that same sport and they didn't get the same results or outcome, and maybe some are happy with it. But I would place a bet that maybe several of them are pretty disappointed to not be up there at the best in the world or be the best in the world. So when you compete in the existing domain as a professional, you have to win at that exact thing. But also on the flip side, when you're an amateur and you're an amateur many things, you're not deep enough to understand and develop what your signature expression is. So you just dabble, you have fun, you everything becomes hobbies. But what I suggest is that you find somewhere in between. You find the semi-professional zone where somewhere between six to 20 hours a week, you pick a few different categories that you want to commit to in that way. And then by showing up weekly for several years, you'll get closer to an understanding where you can contribute enough in that field. You know the language, you know who is some of the deeper thinkers in it, but then you can use some of your other strengths to combine and recombine them together in a way that hasn't been seen before, or a way that you're leading a new perspective on as well. And so I'd say the way you stand out from the automation of the average is by combining your categories together in a unique way. And yes, this will take time, and yes, it will take several years of focus to understand your perspective, your methodology, your approach to that area. But if you do commit to them, I believe that is what will differentiate you from the automation.

Lily 19:10

Nice.

Chris 19:10

And I think certainly for people that are kind of midway through their careers, we're starting to see that happen much more now. And we used to talk about portfolio careers and now it's multi-hyphenate slash careers, people doing a number of different things because they've found they can combine those interest areas and they've got a combination of expertise that hopefully is unique, certainly somewhat unique, and that's what's kind of playing to their strengths. And it definitely seems to suit the world of work at the moment. So yeah, I I think it applies uh in terms of what you need to explore early on, but what you can capitalize on when you're a bit further into your career.

Charlie 19:49

Yeah, and it's also interesting what one seeing is some parallels between those that are in their 50s and those in their 20s. Like what I describe in between is like the age of commitments where 30s to 50, you're you've got kids, yeah, you've got a family plan, you've got responsibilities, you're the one that needs life to be predictable because it needs to show up for you in a way that you can then return home each week. You can be like, oh, okay, work is the easy part. Now I have to provide for the family and put the food on the table and be there as a parent. And that's the that was me. Yeah. And so I feel now seeing people on the other side who have had their kids further nest, even if they perhaps want to return, maybe freaking. Um, or if you're in your 20s where you're before that, but thinking about who your partner is and how you can commit to that in a meaningful way, there's actually quite a lot of similarities of like the reinvention, the discovery, the understanding who you are to then find what you're going to commit to. Because the world of longer lives of you know, 80 to 100 year lives, and we're thinking about is this a lot longer of a career, 60-year career perhaps, it's you've got a whole new chapter ahead of you. So it's what do you want to do for the next 20 years? So you've got a whole another question that the same as being asked of those in their 20s is the same as being asked those in the 50s, which is quite exciting.

Chris 21:02

I think that's how we arrived at this, Lily. No, we thought we were very different, but actually there's far more in common than than we thought in terms of the various topics that we've talked about.

Lily 21:12

Yeah, definitely. And then coming back to what you were saying about the predictability of conventional career paths, Charlie, I'd like to ask you. So, for example, a lot of my peers graduating uni, and because of LinkedIn and social media, you can really see what everyone's starting to do with their career. Yeah. I was wondering if you had any advice for someone who maybe sees themselves going into a slightly more unconventional route and unconventional ascent, and how they can prevent themselves from comparing to what they're seeing on LinkedIn, social media, that kind of thing.

Charlie 21:46

Yeah. So I told that this is like your attention environment. This is pretty important. So it's almost what is your modern day information diet? We talk a lot about what you eat being, you know, who you are as the person that shows up in your body and your genes. Even it's once you consume what's the media you're looking at and auditing that regularly, intentionally is the word. That's what's really key. And even myself recently having to find myself my phone, responding to a lot of people on LinkedIn, Substack, on all the forms that I'm on. Actually, only a few days ago, I decided, right, I'm gonna delete all the apps on my phone, LinkedIn's off, Substack's off, I've even deactivated Gmail. So now I have to do the horrible thing of logging in on uh Chrome if I would want to. But that is intentionally difficult for me to access, and I want it that way, in that I don't want to be constantly checking. And I feel when you take on this path of doing something unconventional, you're often looking for signals of progress and you're looking to be reminded that what you're doing is moving in the right direction. Where before the more conventional parts have external signals of progress, they have people around them saying, good job, or saying you're in line for a promotion, or if you stay here a little bit longer, maybe we'll pay you a bit more. But when you're doing a very unconventional route, you have to find your own feedback back loops. And I'd say that that is what's really key here, is find a way that you can be reminded that your work you're doing is resonating with the right person and is moving you towards the ascent and the goals of which are important to you. So the more you can get closer to that and the more you can feel it, or even create a bank of all the nice things someone said about you so that when you ever feel those doubts, you can return back to them and be like, why do they think I'm good? Oh, they think I'm good for these reasons. Okay, cool. That's a nice reminder. They're my super strengths, they're what really resonates. I should lean into them as well. So I'd say block out the noise, connect with those that are a little bit ahead of you on your own journey, find the guides that you can learn from, but also get to that first feedback loop of an offer that can resonate that you know works and that people love.

Lily 23:48

Oh, that's great. Thank you.

Chris 23:49

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember the days when we weren't always contactable. You know, very few people had mobile phones, we didn't have car phones, you certainly didn't have email on the move. And obviously things have changed a lot since then, but there definitely is something about just disconnecting, even if it's for short periods of time, to not have those constant notifications and kind of headspace that gives you the opportunity to think and explore different things instead of being totally responsive to whatever the phone is is pinging. Yeah.

Charlie 24:24

Yeah, yeah. And I I double down on that. Like my phone is default silent. So even before I would have had messages in and maybe they appear as notifications that I can scroll into whenever I check my phone, that there's not making a noise. That has not made a noise in like seven, eight years, apart from someone who calls me. And if calling me is fair enough, like that's probably urgent enough that I'll pick it up. But if it's a text message, like my assumption of my social norms of the people is like, I'll get back to you within like a couple of days. Like there's no instant messaging, yeah. We're not doing that here. Like, I either see you in person and we catch up and we go deep together, or we'll keep in contact virtually, but it will be very much async. Reply when you need to. But I think it's creating that norms between yourself and others that you feel okay taking a step back. And I'd say that that is absolutely huge. I always find it kind of weird now if someone has their phone vibrate and they and even when they have it flash, I'm like, oh, that is just sending a signal straight to your brain. Like, this is really urgent. You should listen to this right now. And no, it's not urgent. Like, if it was, they'd call you.

Lily 25:25

That's what I say to you, Dad. You'll get a respondent uh response in about three to five business days.

Chris 25:30

But yes, that that is what I've become accustomed to. Yeah, that's absolutely fine.

Lily 25:35

My brother Charlie always has his phone on D D and he's totally unreachable. So maybe somewhere somewhere in the middle for us would be good.

Chris 25:44

Good. So for Gen X, Charlie, a lot of us have followed what you describe as the the path of prestige. It is more that conventional career route. We've climbed the ladder, we've built a life, reached a point where we've been focused on the future and that next achievement, that next hurdle for so long that we kind of lose sight of the present. How can we begin an undefinable ascent, kind of break out of that mindset without thinking that that must mean blowing everything up in terms of what I've built for the last 20 or 30 years?

Charlie 26:18

So compared to the the Gen Z in their 20s, you've got a very different task at hand. So the Gen Z in their 20s doesn't necessarily have the resources to create this life as easily. So they don't have the network yet or the monetary um progress or the savings or the day rate, should we say, even, to make the undefinable life very easy. They have to step uncomfortably towards that. But they do have a fresh mind. They've not yet adopted a way of thinking or believing that then those later in their life, perhaps in their 50s, who have had their norms be the path of prestige. So it's a very opposite problem of the bigger work is the identity and the reflection and the unlearning around what it is that work is, and to what extent does work fuel life, or does life fuel work, and how the two can exist together. And I'd say a big part of this is the energy toolkit. And this is why it's really key in the book is that you can listen to your body and that you can tune in to what it's saying. I feel that the most people I've met who've walked down the path of prestige, they've often tuned out from what their body's telling them, and they've just kept showing up, kept going on because they felt like they had to, because they've built these milestones and this life that is important to them and they've saved for the future. They've been responsible as people, but they've kind of not started listening to what it is that's inside of them. So I'd say the work begins with the self-reflection and it begins by understanding what your body's telling you and from tuning in to all of the signals that it's now showing you, which can be pretty overwhelming. So you can only start designing your life when you can listen to what your body's telling you.

Chris 27:55

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, the key is going to be to keep everything in balance, isn't it, and pay attention to those signals. I I have a a good friend who is actually taking a career break at the moment because she was concerned that she was maybe reaching her limits. But one of the things she said to me a while ago, which I've always remembered, is your body will send you increasingly serious signals until you start paying attention. You put off those small niggles and coughs and colds that don't clear up, things will get more serious until you have to do something. And you just need to pay attention to that and not let things get too far.

Charlie 28:31

Yeah, yeah. And I'd like to double down on this as well and say, like, it's not a weakness to listen to your body. It is an actual strength to be able to tune into it and to hear what it's saying and then to communicate it to others as well. Like, I think my previous framing when I was a lot more into sport was around, oh, I'll just do whatever. Yeah. If I start the run, I'll feel better by the end. Just show up regardless of feeling. And that I think becomes the default norm for our careers as well. Like it doesn't matter how I feel. I'm I've got to do it. Yeah, I'm working towards something. I've got a paycheck at the end of this and I've got a progression plan that I can see. But the more you ignore it, the stronger it gets. And then eventually you start realizing, oh, maybe I should tune into it. And so find that delicate balance between I listen to the signal, but I then respond with logic, that I believe is the key. Yeah, definitely.

Chris 29:18

And the middle part of the book is all about energy, that energy toolkit. And for those of us in midlife, we have to come to almost relearn what our energy levels are like and how they shift. And sometimes that can be tricky. So for someone going through a kind of midlife bonk, what would you say is important to recognize the distinction between when you maybe just need a break, need to take a holiday, and when you actually need to rethink, redesign things, you know, take a step back and maybe start to think about a different ascent.

Charlie 29:53

So I'd start by trialing the holiday, you know, head up first, yeah? Like, why not? Because you want to see if the symptoms can resolve themselves within a week, two weeks. Like when you come back from it, do you now dread work? Or do you feel energized and able then to take it back on again? If there's that dreading, then I'd ask you to go bit deeper and to say, what about it? Are you dreading? Are you dreading the fact that you have to connect with a certain person at work that you don't like? So is it a particular person that if you removed, everything else would be bliss? Or is it the role? If you just move roles, maybe it would look a bit better. Or is it actually the sector or the career path that you're on that you need to walk away from? So I'd start with the closest option of taking the break, and then I'd move further and further up of like thinking about it is if it's the people that I don't particularly resonate with or that are really draining. Is it the work environment that is, is it the role or is it the actual company itself, or is it something even more than that as well? Because you know, there's a lot of life that happens outside of work as well. You know, family, even if we have parents that perhaps we're looking after too, like those moments take a lot of strain on us. So looking at your life as you know, a complete whole rather than looking to blame it on a certain part of it.

Chris 31:05

That is a really sensible approach, I think, in terms of trying to identify the the root cause if there are some symptoms that are showing up, trying to identify what are the things that that might be driving that. And I guess at that point, people would be reflecting on where they've built their expertise, what could they do differently? And you talked about this concept of being semi-professional, which I really like, instead of pursuing mastery, think, well, there are several things that I could do. How would you suggest people go about looking at how they can combine them? Because it might be quite a disparate mix of things from their work experience and their experience in other areas of their lives. How can they start to identify where the connections and the combinations are?

Charlie 31:48

So I'd say this is the really exciting bit, yeah. This is the bit where you can create the completely blank canvas and start dreaming. So where before it's so easy to put one of your categories, say you've been on marketing before and you've been HR professional as another part of your life, like it's so easy to bucket them as like, okay, it's HR, yeah? That's the bucket. Like, is it the bucket or is it a different way of saying it? Was it the people side that you loved? Was it the fact that you could help people progress towards a career that mattered to them? Was it hiring new people because you're filling slots and you love meeting them and onboarding them? Like, which part of the role was the one that called it to you? And I'd ask you to like unbundle the label and to look deeper than what it's saying. So rather than just meeting the surface level of the category's obviously got to be the job title, actually saying, like, what about it is that I enjoy from each one. And then you'll start to find the overlap. Yeah. Like maybe it was communication that drew you to both marketing and drew you to HR and now draws you to podcasting. It's the ability to speak to a truth or to hold others in a moment where they're sharing. Like, okay, that's perhaps got resonance across all three. And you can then see how all these skills start accompanying one another. And in this case, you then can create a podcast that can bring those elements all together. You start meeting people, you onboard them onto a podcast itself, you then market the material out to others, and you get to work with your family while doing it. So there are moments here where I think if you take the job title at face failure, you lose the depth to which you were called to and you lose the nuance as well, because you could either label something as good or bad of, oh, I didn't like that. Or like that one. No, it's a bit more than that. Which parts did you like, which parts didn't you like? Why, how they overlap? Are there other parts from childhood or earlier life that also connect to that? And do they make sense in a category of their own? So I'd ask people to be creative and I'd ask them to give themselves permission to think differently about the interests and the career experience they have, because when you then come to the fun part of recombining it together, there are really interesting ways that you can do it. And it could lead to any kind of creative response. Think of it as like a finding the colours for your paint palette. And once you find them, you can then draw a much beautiful outcome and oil painting that you would want to aspire to, but you would never know what you're going to draw if you never found the right paints to begin with. So start with the paints and then recombine them in different ways and keep experimenting until you find something that works.

Chris 34:21

It's those combinations that then lead you to what is that golden thread? Right. So this is the thing that I want to take forward. Yeah.

Charlie 34:30

Yeah. Yeah. And it's in those reflections of why that was there a particular person that called me to help? Is there a particular way in which I helped them, particular organization that I love to be part of? Like if you keep asking yourself the why, why, why, go deeper and deeper and deeper, and then find the reason beneath it all, you'll begin to answer some of the questions around where should I go next? Which is often where everyone wants to jump to. They want the the easy answer of like, what happens now? It's actually what happens now only follows from who am I and where do I want to go.

Chris 35:01

And what was occurring to me towards the end of the book was summiting is great. As you said, you you have made that climb, you've brought all of those things together. And in midlife, there's often this idea of the second mountain. And I thought you'd maybe not take an account of that. But then you talk about how when you're at the top of your mountain, you can see many more that are available to you. Yeah. And you should rest a while. Yeah, we've talked about the importance of that.

Charlie 35:28

Yeah.

Chris 35:29

But then choose the next mountain. How how does that work? How would you go about choosing what next after you've completed your first ascent?

Charlie 35:37

So this is a reminder that it is not a one and done. And life isn't just a purpose that you have and you complete and it's all over, and then we get to live happily ever after. It doesn't work like that, you know? Like life still continues, it still rolls on, even when you succeed or fail. And so that is the point of which I'm picking up on is that when you get there, there are many more mountains behind. But what I'd then used to reflect on which mountain to choose would be what have I learned from this ascent? What is it that is taught me about myself? How has it now positioned me in a way that I could use or leverage? Have I built network or how I tested or experimented with opportunities or with ways of earning that now I really want to continue learning? And so it requires you to reflect on the entire journey itself. And in fact, you asked me at a good time because this is what I've been living for this last month, is thinking about where do I go next after this summiting for the book itself. So I intentionally sat in the lack of a plan for the three weeks that followed and was like, okay, this is creating a lot of inbound opportunities, a lot of conversations, a lot of ways of me just experimenting a little bit. Maybe I can try and get the book into retreat cabins where people are being more intentional with sitting with their time, or maybe I can try and get them into dinner parties, or maybe I can speak to corporates, or maybe I can just do a big LinkedIn outreach to everyone who's like my posts. Like all the different experiments that I want to try, um, which were obvious next steps for distributing the book further. But then as I kept doing them, I was like, okay, I need a bit more time to sit with where this is going. And so I do quarterly planning by default. I sit down and reflect on the entire quarter and I ask myself different questions about what's gone well, what could be improved, and what in my environment is affecting me. And then I set a number of intentions and goals beneath them. And that happens every quarter. And then I also do weekly too. So I can kind of get a bit of a gauge of where this is going and how I'm feeling about it. But I'd say intentionally sitting in the aftermath and removing the need to have a new plan firstly, so that you can then experiment with all of the options ahead of you, which can be quite overwhelming for a little bit of time. And then when you get a bit more progress towards it, you start finding which ones resonate a little more. And then you start finding which new Acropolis would you like to design and what does it form out of, and where do you now want to spend your time as well. So the conclusions that I'm coming to is around talking to people, HR directors, around how they retain and engage Gen Z talent, which is thinking about how the book can then apply to them and their struggle of the 1.3 years average from Gen Z and the way in which they move roles, if I can help them to intentionally design their lives together as an organization and individual, then I believe, and I've seen it firsthand individually in in public workshops, I now know that this can be applied to companies where they can think, what's the mission? What's the individual's golden thread? Where's the overlap? And how do we get a customized life design plan that can commit it for the next three or five years and move the needle between the retention rate as well.

Chris 38:55

And would that be a the typical cycle, or does that change as far as the individual's concerned in terms of that iterative process? Is it always around three to five years, or might that vary according to your circumstances?

Charlie 39:08

Definitely can vary. Life is always unique to everyone. But I would say it is commonly about three to five years. If they are pretty standard cycles for change and for commitment, if you can it's close enough to feel and see, but far enough away that you have markers of progress along the way as well.

Chris 39:24

Great. Charlie, any other key points from the book or what you're working on now that you want to cover?

Charlie 39:31

What do you guys think your own goal and friends are?

Lily 39:35

Dad, you go first.

Chris 39:37

Um, I think I am on an ascent right now. So, this hybrid role between my part-time marketing role and building a coaching business, I'm really fortunate in that the marketing role is with a career coaching organization. So there's a very natural connection there. So I'm fortunate in that respect. And that wasn't really by design, it's just the way things have sort of worked out over the last five years. But it was interesting you were talking about the people and communications element of HR roles and how that plays into marketing. That is definitely part of the golden thread. And for me, over the last few years, there's also an element of creativity in there, which I never would have expected from much earlier in my career. So that's come more from the marketing side in terms of being a happy amateur as far as the creative work's concerned, but really enjoying it from a brand and design process, um, working on the podcast, editing video, those kind of things. So there's an element there which is uh a growing interest that's emerged over the last few years. Nice, love it.

Lily 40:43

Dad, I want to hear what you think, main as and then I I'll give my thoughts. I want to see how well you know me after all these hours podcasting.

Chris 40:53

Well, I would say one of the things that came out of the friendship episode, actually, and the different roles people play in friendship groups, is you were very clearly a connector. And from some of your more recent work experience on the voluntary side with the Glasgow Charities fashion show and running events and things, I think that connection theme comes across really strongly in terms of connecting different people, seeing how things can fit together. That would be my initial observation.

Lily 41:23

I think that's a good one.

Chris 41:24

But you can tell me if I'm miles off or if that resonates.

Lily 41:27

No, I think that was good. I was gonna go along the GTFS route as well, because that was very revealing to me about what kind of environments I like to work in and all the event planning and all that good stuff. But I like that you've tied that into the friendship episode and the connector thing. I do like that. I do think I'm a bit of a social butterfly, so roles where I can do a bit of connecting and chatting, that's always good for me. So yeah, I think you hit Neil on the head. Well done. Thank you.

Charlie 41:57

This is like a perfect example as well of like the way in which when you reflect on your own life design, it's a lot easier if you have someone to soundboard with because you can get lost in your own mind and start thinking that all the answers come from writing and reflection. Only half of them will, the other half come from balancing the idea with someone else and the person who's opposite to you who knows you well or who can listen, reflect, coach, mentor, guide like that is a crucial strength and a crucial part of the life design is having other people around you that can guide you in those ways.

Chris 42:27

Absolutely. Because sometimes they can see things that you can't, you can be too close to. Yeah.

unknown 42:32

Yeah.

Lily 42:32

I'm gonna text everyone I know and ask what everyone thinks my golden thread is now. So I hope they've got their phones on, do not disturb because they're about to be annoyed.

Chris 42:42

Be interested to see what comes back.

Lily 42:45

Well, thank you, Charlie, for joining us. That was a really, really interesting chat. And if people want to find out more about the work you do or get in touch with you, where can they find you?

Charlie 42:56

So the best place is undefinablelifedesign.com. It's got everything on there. You can find my book, also called Undefinable Life Design, on Amazon. You know, it was a best seller for a little while, featured in Forbes, all that good stuff, and it's got 35 five-star reviews as of today. So we're looking pretty good. Um, but there's also coaching options if you want some one-to-one support, and currently now exploring how to bring this into corporates through HR and people directors as well. So if you're one of those, please do reach out. We'd love to talk about retaining Gen Z Talent as well.

unknown 43:28

Excellent.

Chris 43:28

Fantastic. I can highly recommend the book. We will need to add our reviews to those that you've already got because it is a it's a great read. And thanks for sharing all of that with us. As I said, it is really comprehensive, but it's a very accessible framework. I think there's a lot people can take from it, whatever stage of their career they're at, whether it's Gen X, Gen Z, and everyone in between.

Charlie 43:51

Nice. Thank you guys. Appreciate you having me on.

Chris 43:53

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks again in your busy schedule for making some time to join us. Uh really really Enjoyed the conversation and look forward to to seeing what you do next.

Lily 44:03

Deto.

Charlie 44:04

Yeah, I appreciate it guys. Thank you so much as well for reading the book as well. That's always the uh sets us up for a much more meaningful conversation as well.

Chris 44:10

So yeah, it's a great read.

Charlie 44:11

Thanks, Charlie.

Lily 44:12

Thank you. Well, that was a really interesting and relevant conversation for me right now, especially. What for you, Dad, was your biggest takeaway?

Chris 44:23

I think it was how adaptable the framework is, because I'd I'd read the book, Thinking of Things from My Own Perspective, but actually it seems really relevant from your perspective as well. And I think what Charlie outlined is anyone can really tap into that in terms of what would be the things that form their Acropolis, making sure they've you know got the right energy and how to identify new ways of generating income. So yeah, really flexible framework. How about you?

Lily 44:54

I think definitely for me the discussion about finding our golden threads, finding our interests and building that purpose Acropolis was really interesting because I do kind of feel like my interests and the things I want to do are a bit scrambled and all over the place, but now I feel quite reassured that actually that could maybe play into my strengths now.

Chris 45:16

So that could be where the magic happens in terms of yeah, how you combine them. And then there's a process for how to turn it into something income generating. Yeah. So yeah, lots of good stuff there, which I think we can both put to good use. So yeah, it was great.

Lily 45:34

If you find this episode useful, please be sure to leave us a rating and review. We really appreciate all your feedback. And thanks for listening to this episode of the GNXE Exchange.